Abortion
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
When do others think that a human is created? It is a fundamental question in abortion, and one that must be answered if you are to have to have a credible opinion.
My mind'snot made up but if we say a human is a person upon birth then we can simplify the ethics and legalities.
We've got plenty of baby murders and atrocities without stuffing abortion in the same pigeon hole
It would still be an assault on a woman's right if somebody willfully aborted a foetus against the woman's will then we could deal with that as a separate offence
It would simplify the legalities, but not the ethics. Ethically the argument that makes most sense is that life begins at conception, but that would rule out abortion altogether.
I'm not completely comfortable with either of those arguments. Aborting a baby at 8-9 months is nuts, and trying to make abortion completely illegal is impractical. So then you're left trying to draw some arbitrary line to determine when it is still "OK". Which is impossible.
Technically it's illegal in NZ, but you can get access to an abortion with consent from a Doctor (I believe). I think some form of consent from a doctor or psychologist is a good idea, not to try and restrict a woman's rights, but to ensure she and the father have all of the support required for what is a horrific ordeal.
There's no easy answer, and I don't think just saying "its a woman's choice" is much of an answer at all.
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@no-quarter Are there restrictions on late term abortion? An abortion at 8-9 months is basically birth and I can't imagine that any doctor would do that. Funny how posters don't want opinions to be based on political leanings but this thread is in the politics section....
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The laws in Australia are State based and hence have quite some variance. In NSW and QLD it's still technically a criminal offence, but with the usual exemptions.
According to Wiki: Full-term abortions on demand are legal in the ACT as there are no gestational limits. In the NT it's illegal after 24 weeks unless needed to save the woman's life. Other States look to vary between those.
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@antipodean Full term abortions? That must be a massive hippocratic dilemma for the doctors asked to perform a procedure like that. The mother would have to have a pretty damn good reason to have carried most of the term only to terminate. Most mums know they are pregnant inside 3 months. My personal opinion is that in most cases termination should be done inside the first 15-16 weeks (assuming someone discovered they were pregnant at 3 months they would have 1 month to get the procedure done), and any case that is later in the pregnancy should be held to a higher standard.
Speaking as someone who works in healthcare, we have to be very careful from a medicolegal standpoint.
Patients are fully informed of the nature of a procedure, the risks, benefits, potential complications etc. Just because it is ultimately the woman's choice does not mean that each case should and would receive a great deal of counselling before having such a procedure done. With regard to keeping babies and putting them up for adoption, is it still widespread practice in NZ? (honest question, I have no idea) There are lots of people that can't have children that would love to adopt I'd imagine -
@canefan Only my conjecture, but I can't imagine it happens often. If at all. Certainly not something I could wrap my head around.
But the ACT is among the most liberal of electorates. It is after all a government town. We have a rainbow roundabout.
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I just don't consider a fertilised egg to be a human being. I don't consider destroying a fetilised egg to be murder. Murder is wrong because you take away an individual's right to experience life further. If choosing to have an abortion is wrong because you are taking away a zygote's right to exist, I don't see the difference between that and choosing not to have a baby at all.
If you choose to have a baby, you are bringing a life into the world. If you have an abortion you are choosing to not bring that life into the world. If you choose not to get pregnant in the first place, you are also choosing not to bring that potential life into the world, it just isn't a specific life at that point.
Obviously this all changes at what ever point you consider the zygote to be a human. Personally, I like the way abortion is administered in New Zealand.
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I just don't consider a fertilised egg to be a human being. I don't consider destroying a fetilised egg to be murder. Murder is wrong because you take away an individual's right to experience life further. If choosing to have an abortion is wrong because you are taking away a zygote's right to exist, I don't see the difference between that and choosing not to have a baby at all.
If you choose to have a baby, you are bringing a life into the world. If you have an abortion you are choosing to not bring that life into the world. If you choose not to get pregnant in the first place, you are also choosing not to bring that potential life into the world, it just isn't a specific life at that point.
Obviously this all changes at what ever point you consider the zygote to be a human. Personally, I like the way abortion is administered in New Zealand.
Agree. Every jerk off is potential life, should we be forced to save sperm or be legislated against masterbating?
Are woman on the pill murderers? How about ones that use the morning after pill?
A fertilised egg is not a human being, it could be, but it’s not yet. Calling it murder is hyperbolic in the extreme, and just scientifically inaccurate.
Now, the argument gets very tricky about where the line is, as modern medicine progresses to make babies viable earlier and earlier. (22 weeks?)
For what it’s worth, I’m uncomfortable with any terminations after 12 weeks. But what about situations where the mother will die unless the pregnancy is terminated?
Should both die?
Easy to throw out emotive terms like murder, but it’s an extremely complicated topic.
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A young guy that is a friend of the family knocked up his on/off girlfriend recently and they decided to terminate. It just happened and quite late on, 23 weeks I think. However it would have been done earlier but for the hoops and counselling they went through. I'm not saying that is wrong but it did lead to a later term abortion.
Dad is a bit of a loser, struggles to keep a decent job down, too much booze and recreational use. Nice, decent bloke that cannot seem to grow up. Obviously has deep seated issues. The GF is a total wack-job too. Ms Cato No1 who is a close friend and pretty much pro-life feels it might be the right thing in this instance. She said "Imagine what a shit life that kid will have. Two parents that might actually care but can't do shit". Mind you she was virtually in tears saying it. BTW I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here.
Like most have said on here, it's a very complicated situation and the likely outcome will be a compromise line in the sand that will please very few.
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Well, the good news is that we aren't terminating - we're having a baby (oh god, I'm fucking terrified).
But, it's only just become a real thing, because we waited for the test to see if our kid would have any problems (or kill the wife). That test can't be done (here at least) until you're at least 10 week's preggers, so if it has been positive, we wouldn't have been able to abort until after 12 weeks (probably about 15), which means here they have to actually induce delivery (seriously).
So, abortion has been on our minds quite a bit lately, and all I can say is that we would have pulled the pin if there had been a problem. We've been through IVF a few times and couldn't get going, but even though this finally worked, we also wanted to make sure that if we do bring a life in to this world, that it has as much chance as possible to be successful. It's also of course because we are selfish, and given the choice between knowing that our kids has problems or not having one, we would chose no kid.
I don't know what that makes me (and Mrs gt12), although I know some who would call me a (potential) murderer, but what i do know is that I'm happy with the choice we thankfully didn't have to make.
So right now, we're just hoping for a healthy little baby, and I'm living with a truly out of control Mrs gt12...
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@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
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@no-quarter said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
When do others think that a human is created? It is a fundamental question in abortion, and one that must be answered if you are to have to have a credible opinion.
My mind'snot made up but if we say a human is a person upon birth then we can simplify the ethics and legalities.
We've got plenty of baby murders and atrocities without stuffing abortion in the same pigeon hole
It would still be an assault on a woman's right if somebody willfully aborted a foetus against the woman's will then we could deal with that as a separate offence
It would simplify the legalities, but not the ethics. Ethically the argument that makes most sense is that life begins at conception, but that would rule out abortion altogether.
I'm not completely comfortable with either of those arguments. Aborting a baby at 8-9 months is nuts, and trying to make abortion completely illegal is impractical. So then you're left trying to draw some arbitrary line to determine when it is still "OK". Which is impossible.
Technically it's illegal in NZ, but you can get access to an abortion with consent from a Doctor (I believe). I think some form of consent from a doctor or psychologist is a good idea, not to try and restrict a woman's rights, but to ensure she and the father have all of the support required for what is a horrific ordeal.
There's no easy answer, and I don't think just saying "its a woman's choice" is much of an answer at all.
Yeah it does simplify the ethics too.
All laws influence ethical decisions - the law is very much a part of ethics in this day and age. Law rules what vast swathes of populations define as ethics:
Murdering no good, but warfare ok
Cannibis or pschedelics, no good but alcohol ok
Total law abiding citizens get their ethics from lawsA common consensus on what constitutes a human would change the perception and ethics of abortion
But as @gt12 has poignantly revealed (and thanks mate, that was great to read) is that the abortion debate per se is going to pale into insignificance when the "check first" attitude or behavioural patterns become more widespread.
We're back to accomodating personal choice which is where a lot of "ethical" dilemmas are going to end up at, ideally.
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@majorrage said in Abortion:
@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
This girl was similar, I wasn't at the school the previous year but when she got up to speak there was a collective "here we go again". Every speech or essay where you got to choose the topic she would pick abortion.
I wonder how she went after she left school, I knew what happened to two other people in the interschool christian fellowship she belonged to. One was a a really hot blonde and all her pent up urges got the better of her and she started banging the father of the kid she used to babysit and the other ended up being a drug dealer in Otaki who sits at home with his feral mrs and kids playing playstation while his clients come and go. He was a really smart guy so I expected better than that of him , unfortunately his smarts only extended to finding out how much dope he could have in his house at one time and only be charged with possession not supply and he kept the rest in a car parked out front of his house which he insisted wasn't his premises. Which was all well and good till someone stole the car.
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Well, the good news is that we aren't terminating - we're having a baby (oh god, I'm fucking terrified).
But, it's only just become a real thing, because we waited for the test to see if our kid would have any problems (or kill the wife). That test can't be done (here at least) until you're at least 10 week's preggers, so if it has been positive, we wouldn't have been able to abort until after 12 weeks (probably about 15), which means here they have to actually induce delivery (seriously).
So, abortion has been on our minds quite a bit lately, and all I can say is that we would have pulled the pin if there had been a problem. We've been through IVF a few times and couldn't get going, but even though this finally worked, we also wanted to make sure that if we do bring a life in to this world, that it has as much chance as possible to be successful. It's also of course because we are selfish, and given the choice between knowing that our kids has problems or not having one, we would chose no kid.
I don't know what that makes me (and Mrs gt12), although I know some who would call me a (potential) murderer, but what i do know is that I'm happy with the choice we thankfully didn't have to make.
So right now, we're just hoping for a healthy little baby, and I'm living with a truly out of control Mrs gt12...
Congratulations mate. Did you have the skin fold on the neck test?
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@gt12 I feel you mate. We came to exactly the same position. We were in the high risk zone and talked it through at length before and while hapu. Getting the results was the trippiest bit till deliver day. All the best!! And congrats to you amd the missus
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Although we have a wide range of opinions and experiences I think we're actually all on the same page in that abortion is definitely not just a black and white issue. There is a shitload of nuance to it and its incredibly disingenuous when activists and political parties try to denigrate it to a simple pro-life vs pro-choice argument. Imagine if the public discourse had this level of sophistication to it!
Also massive congrats @gt12 that really is terrific news. All the best on the adventure!
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It’s a heck of an issue to draw any sort of solid line on. I’ve swung back and forth on my thinking at times.
My only definite is that I’m always troubled when people campaign for late term abortions, having had a niece and nephew born three months prem and having sat through two 20 week scans. Rightly or wrongly that made me wary of the push a decade ago to allow more late term abortions.
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I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?