Abortion
-
A young guy that is a friend of the family knocked up his on/off girlfriend recently and they decided to terminate. It just happened and quite late on, 23 weeks I think. However it would have been done earlier but for the hoops and counselling they went through. I'm not saying that is wrong but it did lead to a later term abortion.
Dad is a bit of a loser, struggles to keep a decent job down, too much booze and recreational use. Nice, decent bloke that cannot seem to grow up. Obviously has deep seated issues. The GF is a total wack-job too. Ms Cato No1 who is a close friend and pretty much pro-life feels it might be the right thing in this instance. She said "Imagine what a shit life that kid will have. Two parents that might actually care but can't do shit". Mind you she was virtually in tears saying it. BTW I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here.
Like most have said on here, it's a very complicated situation and the likely outcome will be a compromise line in the sand that will please very few.
-
Well, the good news is that we aren't terminating - we're having a baby (oh god, I'm fucking terrified).
But, it's only just become a real thing, because we waited for the test to see if our kid would have any problems (or kill the wife). That test can't be done (here at least) until you're at least 10 week's preggers, so if it has been positive, we wouldn't have been able to abort until after 12 weeks (probably about 15), which means here they have to actually induce delivery (seriously).
So, abortion has been on our minds quite a bit lately, and all I can say is that we would have pulled the pin if there had been a problem. We've been through IVF a few times and couldn't get going, but even though this finally worked, we also wanted to make sure that if we do bring a life in to this world, that it has as much chance as possible to be successful. It's also of course because we are selfish, and given the choice between knowing that our kids has problems or not having one, we would chose no kid.
I don't know what that makes me (and Mrs gt12), although I know some who would call me a (potential) murderer, but what i do know is that I'm happy with the choice we thankfully didn't have to make.
So right now, we're just hoping for a healthy little baby, and I'm living with a truly out of control Mrs gt12...
-
@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
-
@no-quarter said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
When do others think that a human is created? It is a fundamental question in abortion, and one that must be answered if you are to have to have a credible opinion.
My mind'snot made up but if we say a human is a person upon birth then we can simplify the ethics and legalities.
We've got plenty of baby murders and atrocities without stuffing abortion in the same pigeon hole
It would still be an assault on a woman's right if somebody willfully aborted a foetus against the woman's will then we could deal with that as a separate offence
It would simplify the legalities, but not the ethics. Ethically the argument that makes most sense is that life begins at conception, but that would rule out abortion altogether.
I'm not completely comfortable with either of those arguments. Aborting a baby at 8-9 months is nuts, and trying to make abortion completely illegal is impractical. So then you're left trying to draw some arbitrary line to determine when it is still "OK". Which is impossible.
Technically it's illegal in NZ, but you can get access to an abortion with consent from a Doctor (I believe). I think some form of consent from a doctor or psychologist is a good idea, not to try and restrict a woman's rights, but to ensure she and the father have all of the support required for what is a horrific ordeal.
There's no easy answer, and I don't think just saying "its a woman's choice" is much of an answer at all.
Yeah it does simplify the ethics too.
All laws influence ethical decisions - the law is very much a part of ethics in this day and age. Law rules what vast swathes of populations define as ethics:
Murdering no good, but warfare ok
Cannibis or pschedelics, no good but alcohol ok
Total law abiding citizens get their ethics from lawsA common consensus on what constitutes a human would change the perception and ethics of abortion
But as @gt12 has poignantly revealed (and thanks mate, that was great to read) is that the abortion debate per se is going to pale into insignificance when the "check first" attitude or behavioural patterns become more widespread.
We're back to accomodating personal choice which is where a lot of "ethical" dilemmas are going to end up at, ideally.
-
@majorrage said in Abortion:
@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
This girl was similar, I wasn't at the school the previous year but when she got up to speak there was a collective "here we go again". Every speech or essay where you got to choose the topic she would pick abortion.
I wonder how she went after she left school, I knew what happened to two other people in the interschool christian fellowship she belonged to. One was a a really hot blonde and all her pent up urges got the better of her and she started banging the father of the kid she used to babysit and the other ended up being a drug dealer in Otaki who sits at home with his feral mrs and kids playing playstation while his clients come and go. He was a really smart guy so I expected better than that of him , unfortunately his smarts only extended to finding out how much dope he could have in his house at one time and only be charged with possession not supply and he kept the rest in a car parked out front of his house which he insisted wasn't his premises. Which was all well and good till someone stole the car.
-
Well, the good news is that we aren't terminating - we're having a baby (oh god, I'm fucking terrified).
But, it's only just become a real thing, because we waited for the test to see if our kid would have any problems (or kill the wife). That test can't be done (here at least) until you're at least 10 week's preggers, so if it has been positive, we wouldn't have been able to abort until after 12 weeks (probably about 15), which means here they have to actually induce delivery (seriously).
So, abortion has been on our minds quite a bit lately, and all I can say is that we would have pulled the pin if there had been a problem. We've been through IVF a few times and couldn't get going, but even though this finally worked, we also wanted to make sure that if we do bring a life in to this world, that it has as much chance as possible to be successful. It's also of course because we are selfish, and given the choice between knowing that our kids has problems or not having one, we would chose no kid.
I don't know what that makes me (and Mrs gt12), although I know some who would call me a (potential) murderer, but what i do know is that I'm happy with the choice we thankfully didn't have to make.
So right now, we're just hoping for a healthy little baby, and I'm living with a truly out of control Mrs gt12...
Congratulations mate. Did you have the skin fold on the neck test?
-
@gt12 I feel you mate. We came to exactly the same position. We were in the high risk zone and talked it through at length before and while hapu. Getting the results was the trippiest bit till deliver day. All the best!! And congrats to you amd the missus
-
Although we have a wide range of opinions and experiences I think we're actually all on the same page in that abortion is definitely not just a black and white issue. There is a shitload of nuance to it and its incredibly disingenuous when activists and political parties try to denigrate it to a simple pro-life vs pro-choice argument. Imagine if the public discourse had this level of sophistication to it!
Also massive congrats @gt12 that really is terrific news. All the best on the adventure!
-
It’s a heck of an issue to draw any sort of solid line on. I’ve swung back and forth on my thinking at times.
My only definite is that I’m always troubled when people campaign for late term abortions, having had a niece and nephew born three months prem and having sat through two 20 week scans. Rightly or wrongly that made me wary of the push a decade ago to allow more late term abortions.
-
I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?
-
@majorrage said in Abortion:
@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
Your argument centres around edge cases which I am not sure should dictate the law. I guess it works pretty well in NZ, technically illegal but can be performed with the consent of a health professional - that covers the extreme cases you talk about without making it too readily available. Which is why Bill English wasn't keen to talk about rushing in any law changes like they have in the States.
What I gather from this thread is:
- Most are OK with early term abortion, when the baby is still in its very early stages of developing from a fertilised egg into a human being.
- Most are uncomfortable with the idea of late term abortions, which are perfectly legal in some parts of the world, notably various states in the US where some truly horrifying stories have emerged from some of the Planned Parenthood centres.
- Nobody is able to draw a line in the sand around when a fertilised egg becomes a human being with rights to live, but somewhere between 12 - 20 weeks probably makes sense.
- Abortion needs to be looked at on a case by case basis, as there are so many variables in play one law will never fit all cases.
So I'd say most of us are a nuanced with our opinions (imagine that) - not completely pro-choice or pro-life - and the law should attempt to reflect the reality of that.
It's a good discussion and I appreciate hearing people's thoughts on this.
-
@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?
Yeah, which is why I posed the question:
"if your partner was 3 months pregnant with your child which you both wanted to keep, and someone kicked her in the stomach repeatedly killing the baby inside, would you want them to be charged with assault or murder?"
Nobody has attempted to answer that one yet...
-
Personally I would want them charged with murder.
But on abortion I lean towards being able to terminate the pregnancy at this time.
So at this stage I'm basically a selfish hypocrite.
-
@no-quarter said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?
Yeah, which is why I posed the question:
"if your partner was 3 months pregnant with your child which you both wanted to keep, and someone kicked her in the stomach repeatedly killing the baby inside, would you want them to be charged with assault or murder?"
Nobody has attempted to answer that one yet...
What people want in relation to their specific circumstances is for sound reasons immaterial to the application of the law. Because then instead of being about justice, it becomes retribution. Having said that I'd expect for a pregnancy that the couple wanted to take to term and have a child, they'd obviously want murder charges applied. It's a clear case of assault with the intent to terminate the gestation (or at least do enormous damage). The question then comes to the timeline; where would you draw the line? After the embryonic stage? 26 weeks?
Time to introduce the slippery slope: What if the pregnancy wasn't obvious to the assailant, or unknown to both parties? What if medical practitioner had identified a high risk that the pregnancy wouldn't go full term?
Personally, I don't have a problem with foetal homicide laws as long as the requirement is intent.
-
@majorrage said in Abortion:
@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
It is black and white. Hence how there are laws around it. Your assertion that only one side holds a black and white view is false.
All the black and white positions are stuck with anomalies. Some are nonsense, like the claim sperm is a human to be. Others like Tim's (in regards to fertalisation ) pose trickier conundrums.
Some people get lifestyle abortions. Just not convenient to have a baby crimp the style, but the law still has definate black and white rules. -
@baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.
I got put through the grinder for making her question that.
Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?
Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.
-
@majorrage said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.
I got put through the grinder for making her question that.
Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?
Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.
A couple of things, majority and minority are heavily effected by knowledge. Make everyone watch a video of an abortion and see the aftermath, then let the majority decide. Force unborn humans who die in the womb in any way to always be called babies. Women are not only terminating a pregnancy, they are killing a baby.
The reality is that the reality is never shown to the majority.
-
@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
@majorrage said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.
I got put through the grinder for making her question that.
Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?
Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.
A couple of things, majority and minority are heavily effected by knowledge. Make everyone watch a video of an abortion and see the aftermath, then let the majority decide. Force unborn humans who die in the womb in any way to always be called babies. Women are not only terminating a pregnancy, they are killing a baby.
The reality is that the reality is never shown to the majority.
Without wishing to trivialise an important issue, we, the Western World (includes you at the very far West) are protected from many realities of life and death. Many would freak out being made to watch a sausage being made. We live in a cosseted world.