2017-18 World Sevens Series
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Titch talking to Veitch here (starts 3.20 in to first link):
http://120.138.20.16/WeekOnDemand/radiosport/2017.10.28-12.15.00-D.mp3
http://120.138.20.16/WeekOnDemand/radiosport/2017.10.28-12.30.00-D.mp3
A couple of random points.
I have no doubt that the players that pulled out were influenced to do so by the All Blacks. That's pretty much been confirmed by all parties.
That was wrong, especially Savea when he'd committed so heavily and been part of the team.
On that basis I don't blamr Titch for being pissed off.
Secondly we were ravaged by injury. Ben Lam was a huge blow, absolutely massive, Curry, DJ, SBW etc etc. As I heard Loosehead Len talking about later in the arvo you've got to have luck with injury in a tournament. He was actually referring to 2015 ABs (in response to moron and rugby hater Mark Watson ... but that's another story) but it applies durectly here.
Thirdly, not being able to pick XVs players meant he was left with his 7s specialists who have done fantastically over the previous 22 years, so could/should have been able to produce better.
In summary, swings and roundabouts, I have sympathy as I think it disrupted his campsign.
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Hansen said BFA was keen to play 7s but didn't want to leave the Highlanders to do so, so with Ticth wanting him for such a long period, this was a problem.
@Stargazer i think the reason McCaw is held higher than Forbes is no disrespect to Forbes, similarly any other sporting great in 'minority' sports in NZ they just don't have the profile and standing as rugby, is quite simple really.
Bond and Murray, Ever-Swindells, Mannering, Adams, Carrington et al, legends in thier sport, and gain good attention from time to time but again just don't have the same profile in the NZ psyche that garners them the same status in the hearts and minds of so many.
That's not to say they don't deserve it, just the media focus on rugby which is played 40 odd weeks a year is what drives it.
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@booboo said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
Titch talking to Veitch here (starts 3.20 in to first link):
http://120.138.20.16/WeekOnDemand/radiosport/2017.10.28-12.15.00-D.mp3
http://120.138.20.16/WeekOnDemand/radiosport/2017.10.28-12.30.00-D.mp3
A couple of random points.
I have no doubt that the players that pulled out were influenced to do so by the All Blacks. That's pretty much been confirmed by all parties.
That was wrong, especially Savea when he'd committed so heavily and been part of the team.
On that basis I don't blamr Titch for being pissed off.
Secondly we were ravaged by injury. Ben Lam was a huge blow, absolutely massive, Curry, DJ, SBW etc etc. As I heard Loosehead Len talking about later in the arvo you've got to have luck with injury in a tournament. He was actually referring to 2015 ABs (in response to moron and rugby hater Mark Watson ... but that's another story) but it applies durectly here.
Thirdly, not being able to pick XVs players meant he was left with his 7s specialists who have done fantastically over the previous 22 years, so could/should have been able to produce better.
In summary, swings and roundabouts, I have sympathy as I think it disrupted his campsign.
As tr points out, this is disputed by Hansen. In regards to Ben Smith, Smith made it clear he was committed to his franchise and would only play Sevens if he didn't have to miss Super Rugby. Titch demanded four tournaments - Smith wasn't willing to meet those conditions and so he wasn't selected.
I presume a similar thing happened with Ardie or Beauden. Obviously if you miss All Blacks tests and your replacement does well then you may find it difficult to get your spot back. That's just the reality.
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@hydro11 said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
I presume a similar thing happened with Ardie or Beauden. Obviously if you miss All Blacks tests and your replacement does well then you may find it difficult to get your spot back. That's just the reality.
The same risk applies with taking a sabbatical.
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@stargazer said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
@hydro11 My comparison of DJ Forbes and McCaw wasn't about pay. It was just an illustration of the wide gap between both codes as far as appreciation for the players and the game are concerned. In my opinion, that's - to a great degree - an image problem. You and @Nepia present it as facts that "sevens is a lesser game" or not "a very exciting sport to watch", but that's a very subjective opinion, even if it's shared by (many) others.
I personally think the well-performing teams of the last few years, South Africa's and Fiji's men's teams and Australia's and our very own NZ women's teams are very exciting to watch. I like the fast-paced games and good teams, and I think they display more skills than great speed and strength alone (I don't think Isles is that good). If the NZ men could play like that, they'd attract more publicity, more sponsorship, and also more talent. But NZR needs to invest (not just money!) before they can reap the rewards.
NZR must show that they take the game seriously, can be innovative by changing the training set-up and are willing to invest a bit more. It doesn't all revolve about player's pay, so it doesn't have to cost excessive amounts of money. I doubt other countries have thrown huge amounts at it. The reason why South Africa have done better than NZ the last few years is because the game has been changing and they have adapted better (I mentioned the permanent, centralised training base as an example). NZ used to be ahead of everyone, but didn't keep up with the developments in the sport. Complete lack of vision on the part of NZ.
@hydro11 said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
South Africa seem to do better than us because they have better natural athletes.
That's just a silly comment. We have plenty of excellent natural athletes as well; the Ioane brothers are probably the tip of the athletic iceberg in NZ. I think a lot of those athletes for some reason remain undiscovered or end up in other sports.
Anyway, I don't think we'll agree on this. I think we can agree that improvements are necessary and better vision is needed to achieve those improvements.
The problem is that our best athletes all play rugby union. The NZRU could turn up to the NZ Track and Field Champs and offer someone a full time contract. However, it's a very small pool of players to choose from. We have athletes but I don't think we have players like Senatla, Afrika or Isles.
It's not a fact that Sevens is a lesser game but it is a fact that most people think it is a lesser game. If you enjoy and find it exciting then that is fine.
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@bovidae said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
@hydro11 said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
I presume a similar thing happened with Ardie or Beauden. Obviously if you miss All Blacks tests and your replacement does well then you may find it difficult to get your spot back. That's just the reality.
The same risk applies with taking a sabbatical.
That's a fair point but you only take a sabbatical when you are established. Beauden and Ardie were trying to establish themselves in 2016.
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11937602
Shag knocks it on the head. Ben Smith would play but not if he had to play 4 WS rounds. Titch made his choice and Ben Smith made his, according to Shag
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The squabble over those players is a bit of a red herring for me.
Hansen and Titch should be advocating as strongly as possible for their respective programs and the whole point of guys like Sorenson and Tricker ensure the best outcome - where they failed big time.
Titch said the first meeting to sit down and plan the AB involvement was in mid 2015 - directly after a test.
Seems awfully late to start planning for the Olympics and a less than ideal for Hansen to consider it a month out from RWC.
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@rotated said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
The squabble over those players is a bit of a red herring for me.
Hansen and Titch should be advocating as strongly as possible for their respective programs and the whole point of guys like Sorenson and Tricker ensure the best outcome - where they failed big time.
Titch said the first meeting to sit down and plan the AB involvement was in mid 2015 - directly after a test.
Seems awfully late to start planning for the Olympics and a less than ideal for Hansen to consider it a month out from RWC.
The point is that Sorenson and Tricker have no power to force players to do anything. As I understand it, Titch created a list of names and few people on that list wanted to play. The real question is should the NZRU force All Blacks to play 7's. If your answer is no, then what could they have done differently?
I imagine the planning had started earlier. That specific meeting was to nut out which players Titch would target. It would seem strange to me to get specific players to play in the Olympics more than a year before. You don't even necessarily have everyone contracted at that stage and lots could change between then and the Olympics.
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@canefan they played in Rio didnt they?
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@taniwharugby said in 2017-18 World Sevens Series:
@canefan they played in Rio didnt they?
Ioanes played in Rio and also a number of World Sevens tournaments in the leadup. They had an interrupted 2016 Super season as a result
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@kiwimurph And that didn't harm the start of Rieko's All Blacks career one little bit.
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Titch's team had gone right off the boil well before Rio. We had a boring and ineffective game plan and I sensed the players were no longer buying in. We'd be down in the last minutes and they seemed to play without the desperation I would expect of someone in black.
But by poking the blame on the NZRU Titch tries to avoid anyone noticing that.
I'm not buying. There were injury issues but we hadn't been winning with our full squad anyway for the previous season.
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@stargazer I dont think it would have harmed anyones AB career, but I think guys like Ben SMith and BB who chose not to be part of the extended 7s build up it, particularly BB, it would have affected them right then for that period
Would the canes have won the Super title without BB & Ardie? BB would not have overtaken Cruden when he did, Ben SMith didnt want to go away from the HIghlanders for as long as Titch wanted him, expect a few other slightly less high profile players probably felt the same...what should NZR have done, forced them to go to Rio?
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The blueprint was Wellington and Sydney when the Ioane bros, SBW and Savea were available. Sure, the win in Sydney was fortuitous but we had the x-factor players to win those games. I'm sure Titch hoped to replicate that in Rio but it didn't happen for one reason or another. Rieko didn't fire a shot in Rio, SBW was injured, etc.
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