Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final
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Red and Yellow cards are absolutely defining rugby right now.
However, well done Crusaders and gutsy fucken effort Lions.
Razor Robinson's matra is a DJ Khaled song. "All I do is win win win no matter what" that guy is a future ABs coach. Both undeniable and scary. Breakdancing and All Blacks coach should ever appear in the same sentence.
2 teams with he highest point tally were in the final. That's usually a good thing. Maybe the Lions got an easy ride. They beat the former champions though so IMO they deserved their final spot just as much as the Crusaders.
But I'll be fucken happy to see the end of this ridiculous format. On another note I think we have also seen the end of rugby as we knew it. The powers that be may have the players welfare at heart but it's obvious that common sense no longer has a place in officiating dangerous collisions. Its by the book no matter what.
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@raznomore yea you gotta think a lot of being an AB coach comes down to timing (when you are good enough and have results obviously) if he continues to get results, Razor could well be timing it perfectly for when Shag steps down with most others who will be vying likely out of NZ and probably contracted elsewhere.
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@Bones said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:
@Crucial said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:
@ACT-Crusader said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:
@rotated said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:
This is where the neutral referee & TMO would be ideal.
Nah. The right process and decision was made.
I hate these ones. Smith wasn't trying to tackle anyone, he was chasing the ball as you should. He looks up and sees Havili has taken to the air and is about to collide with him in. You could argue that Havili put himself in danger by jumping toward other players on the ground that couldn't get out of the way with his knees forward and toward their heads.
Havili was just playing the game and so was Smith. By the way things are ruled Smith was meant to anticipate that someone would take a flying leap at his head though which is silly. Rugby is a game played on your feet according to the Laws.Why would you not anticipate someone jumping for a kick? Been living in the wilderness for the last 15 odd years? That's like letting people off for a high tackle because the other guy is short.
Totally different.
Smith did nothing that you wouldn't expect from a normal player. He wasn't reckless, he didn't create danger. Yes, someone MAY jump, but until they do he is allowed to do what he is doing.
I'm not saying it was a wrong decision. Under the way these happenings are ruled , the decision was correct.
What I don't like is that a player doing nothing wrong is suddenly 'in the wrong' because of another player's actions. Using your high tackle example it is more like a player ducking. A short player is always short. A player in the air isn't always in the air.
Currently if I am standing set under a ball and someone jumps well above me and catches the ball, knees me in the head and then goes tits up and crashes on his shoulders I get red carded. I'm not saying that is exactly what happened here but very similar.
I didn't create the danger, the guy leaping into me did. He took a risk that didn't pay off but I got the blame. -
I don't know the answer to the issue though. I don't want to see jumping stopped but a bit of pragmatism needs to be in play. If the video shows that the player jumped after the 'offender' was in a ground position for a catch then the risk is his and the other guy shouldn't cop the blame.
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I really don't know how dumb you'd have to be in today's rugby to not have the slightest inkling when chasing a kick that the opposition may, just maybe, go in the air. Yeah shit I bet Smith was surprised, probably never seen a player do that before huh!
@Crucial, a player doing karate kicks in the middle of the field isn't doing anything wrong until he hits another player that's run into him. But once he does, probably not a wise thing to be doing eh? So why not use his brains and anticipate what is going on...
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Crotty deservedly named MotM but a few others deserve a mention too : Goodhue was a rock in defense, Tamanivalu was outstanding in the first half when the Crusaders had some possession, Todd was everywhere, and Whitelock did what he usually does. Alalaatoa was also good when he came in. Is he eligible for NZ, Australia or Samoa ?
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@Bones said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:
I really don't know how dumb you'd have to be in today's rugby to not have the slightest inkling when chasing a kick that the opposition may, just maybe, go in the air. Yeah shit I bet Smith was surprised, probably never seen a player do that before huh!
@Crucial, a player doing karate kicks in the middle of the field isn't doing anything wrong until he hits another player that's run into him. But once he does, probably not a wise thing to be doing eh? So why not use his brains and anticipate what is going on...
I think you are deliberately missing the point.
Currently if there is a high ball and you are positioned (or getting into position) to catch, and there is a chaser, you are actually obliged to put yourself into potential danger by jumping or anticipate the other player jumping and get out of the way.
IMO that is plain dumb. Why does the player that takes a risk by going to the air have the rights?Yes, in this occasion everyone knows that dumb ruling applies and he should have jumped himself or got out of the way. I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that I find this situation unfair on the player playing the game by the law 'on his feet'.
Is everyone on the ground near where a ball is coming down expected to move away because a chaser may take a flying leap at them? That's what is currently expected and I find that weird as there is no danger at all until that player leaps.
Edit: just to be clear. If the guy on the ground is nowhere near where the ball is coming down he has no rights and shouldn't provide an obstacle for those able to claim he catch.
The timing can be very fine.
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Haven't watched it, won't watch it, but congratulations to Scott Robertson and the whole crusader organisation. It's a remarkable season to play in the NZ conference, only lose once, and then travel to South Africa and win the final. Hell of a year
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@mariner4life said in Lions v Crusaders - Super Rugby Final:
Haven't watched it, won't watch it, but congratulations to Scott Robertson and the whole crusader organisation. It's a remarkable season to play in the NZ conference, only lose once, and then travel to South Africa and win the final. Hell of a year
That's the thing right? They have broken the travel to SA and win a final hoodoo
And at Altitude! Fuck that.
That was just damn tough.
Crotty was outstanding but my hero of the match was Whitelock. Did a McCaw in terms of match durability.
That last 20 mins must have been in a dark dark place. Read too I imagine
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A big part of rugby is about anticipating what the opposition will do, both in attack and defence, and often you mistime or misread what will happen and you suffer the consequences. Often no malice or intent, but your inability to anticipate the situation leaves you in the hands of the officials.
There is a lot of clarification required around dangerous play though, we have seen some really harsh penalties and cards this season for plays that are part of the competition, while some cards have been clear and obvious, and some have been let go.
IMO if Kainos forearm in the Lions test was in super rugby it would have been red and copped him a ban, but the bed had been made the week before with SOB.
I have also always been of the opinion that we need to find a better way to deal with 'accidental' red card offenses, but this opens up another can of worms.
I wonder if there has been more cards at super rugby and international than previously?
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Solid!
Crusaders learned from the Canes' experience. Slowed things down at nearly every opportunity and needed to. They were looking pretty weary at the end of it.
Thought most of our AB "stars" really stood up in that game - Crotty, Read and Whitelock in particular. Goodhue looked fairly close to flawless as well. Todd and Drummond very good. Most of the others made at least one dumb or careless error that could have been crucial - especially if the Lions had stayed at 15 men.
However, SANZAR had tilted the playing field pretty heavily in the Lions favour, so a bit of adversity to tip some advantage back to us was very welcome.
And on that note - Fuck you SANZAR. You had better have a competent panel designing a fair, reduced competition or I may well not bother watching in future. That so-called "competition" was a fucking farce. I reckon it ended up being as tough as the earthquake season for the Crusaders, so a mighty effort to get the job done.
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I'd like to give a heap of credit to the Lions. They were slandered by the NZ media and fanbase because they didn't have to play NZ sides and haven't had to travel in the playoffs, as if they were no-hopers. What they showed against the Canes and in the second half this morning suggests they are legitimately one of the best sides in the comp and would've won their fair share of games against NZ sides had the draw asked them to.
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@Wurzel Yes. It is not their fault that SANZAR served up this shambles of a competition.
I find it hard to rank the Lions because they haven't really been fairly tested over the season. Not surprising that they've finished both games over the top of the Canes and Crusaders - not just due to the altitude, but because they've also had a far less grueling season. Lots of easy games where they'll have had plenty of opportunity to rest their players (including the international window).
All that said, they are clearly one of the best teams in the competition - as they showed last year when they were in the SA conference that played the harder schedule.
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to answer my own question, I found stats on cards (this just said sinbin, didnt clarify red/yellow) given for 2015/2016/2017 Super seasons (accoridng to Sanzarrugby.com)
Reds were top this year with 13, and the year total was 143
Reds were top in 2015 with 10, and the annual total was 94
Chiefs were top in 2014 with 13, annual total was 91According to another rugbystatbunker.com, in the same period, for Reds cards we had:
13 in 2017
6 in 2016
10 in 2015 -
Awesome result. Great for the Crusaders to add another title to their impressive title. Especially travelling to SA to do it.
Don't know how the Lions managed to get scrums reset whenever they collapsed it but the Crusaders got pinged at the slightest hint of doing something wrong. Ref was pretty good overall though. Had no choice on the red card. I agree the red card situation needs to be reviewed but this one wasn't marginal in any way. He wasn't even contesting and Havili landed on his head/neck.
I would like them to introduce an orange card where the player takes no further part but after 15-20min he can be replaced. Reds should be for eye gouging, kicking, kneeing, biting, punching, deliberate foul play etc. Not for tackles that have gone wrong. However that is a seperate discussion because this game thread shouldn't turn into a debate about cards.
Ps. Lots of people talking sbout this format being finished. As far as i know the "new" format still involves conferences, guarenteed home finals but with over half of the teams making the finals. I guess it eliminates the situation where a SA team goes all year not playing NZ or OZ teams which is a step in the right direction but still not ideal.
