Aaron Cruden
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Cruden has been a great player, but like Rattue, I don't think he ever really reached the heights that were predicted. I don't think he was ever viewed as quite at the top echelon. He certainly was at super rugby level, and was a good international, but just never quite at that top level.
Carter, then Mehrts, then everybody else. If Barrett continues his form this year, then that may well change.
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@taniwharugby said in Aaron Cruden:
pfft, surely it goes like this...
DC
Daylight
Beaver
BB
Cruden-Spencer-Merhts
Brown-Mannix-Preston-McAllister
A month of Sundays
Marc EllisSomeone has fraped you. Your posts are usually never this funny
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Cruden was a very good player but wasn't superstar level. He didn't have a prayer when BB ramped it up last year and tbh I rate LS above him now. No. 2 behind Carter? Cant see that. Would rate him below Mehrts, BB and Carlos.
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@MajorRage said in Aaron Cruden:
Cruden has been a great player, but like Rattue, I don't think he ever really reached the heights that were predicted.
We agree on one thing, Rattue never reached any height!!
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He's in the convo at 3 for me, behind Fox and Carter in some order I'd need to think about.
He did sensational things on the field. Henry described him as the best 10 he'd seen after Fox. Carter was a freak, but Fox was a machine. Like Norm Hewitt, Crudes had poor timing being stuck behind a great, and then getting injured once he got his chance
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@Donsteppa said in Aaron Cruden:
@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
The shock at Chiefs fans overrating Crudan!
The shock at someone rating Tony Brown ahead of him...
Better kicker (goal kicker and directing the team around the field), better tackler, and didn't hide from running the backline.
You can't be included in these great ten lists if you won't run the backline.
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All the very best to Aaron Cruden,it pisses me off the nut case Chris Rattue,calls him the nearly man,well the nearly man played 47 x tests for his country,47 more than Chris Rattue ever played,just bloody unlucky,that he had some bad luck with injury,not to mention ,the great one Carter,and now Barrett playing in the same period,given that' the kid battled cancer,even before his proffesional career started,I reckon that's not a bad record.cant help feel that we saw the best of Cruden when SBW was playing outside him,with Charlie Ngatai at centre,we are fortunate to have Barrett,Sopaga and Richie Mounga floating around,one player I would definefly keep an eye on,is Tyler Blayendaal ,who is playing for Munster,is considered to be the most outstanding NZ player plying his trade in Europe at the minute.
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One question that is worth considering in this discussion is whether Cruden was ever really seen as first choice 10?
And other than the first two Wales games in 2016 you would have to say no. He was always filling in while DC was injured. Then BB went past him.
Of course that doesn't disqualify him from being tge second best in the pro era.
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@pukunui I think for a period before and leading into the 2015 RWC Cruden was seen as the #1 10, many had written DC off and were annoyed at the coaching teams insistence at selecting when he got a window of fitness, lest we forget Twattue's opinion on DC as well, cos it carries such great weight.
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@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
@Donsteppa said in Aaron Cruden:
@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
The shock at Chiefs fans overrating Crudan!
The shock at someone rating Tony Brown ahead of him...
Better kicker (goal kicker and directing the team around the field), better tackler, and didn't hide from running the backline.
You can't be included in these great ten lists if you won't run the backline.
Cruden didn't hide from running a backline at any level. If he did Hansen and co wouldn't have selected him.
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@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
@Donsteppa said in Aaron Cruden:
@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
The shock at Chiefs fans overrating Crudan!
The shock at someone rating Tony Brown ahead of him...
Better kicker (goal kicker and directing the team around the field), better tackler, and didn't hide from running the backline.
You can't be included in these great ten lists if you won't run the backline.
Cruden didn't hide from running a backline at any level. If he did Hansen and co wouldn't have selected him.
Every player has his flaws, this was just his. Hansen covered it by using Dagg as a first receiver.
That and his short kicking length.
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@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
@Donsteppa said in Aaron Cruden:
@Kirwan said in Aaron Cruden:
The shock at Chiefs fans overrating Crudan!
The shock at someone rating Tony Brown ahead of him...
Better kicker (goal kicker and directing the team around the field), better tackler, and didn't hide from running the backline.
You can't be included in these great ten lists if you won't run the backline.
Cruden didn't hide from running a backline at any level. If he did Hansen and co wouldn't have selected him.
Every player has his flaws, this was just his. Hansen covered it by using Dagg as a first receiver.
That and his short kicking length.
It wasn't hiding from running the backline, it was just the style that developed with him - it was a style that the Chiefs used effectively and Hansen was happy to carry on (clearly it's a style you don't prefer) ... and I don't think Dagg took the ball at first receiver quite as much as you're making out.
Yes, he often wouldn't take the ball of the first ruck, because the opportunities open up on the second but quite frankly if you watch any modern rugby team this is the style that is played.
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@Kirwan I'll certainly give you the short kicking - that has been a glaring weakness of his game from day 1.
Not entirely sure what you mean by running a backline honestly. He had the chiefs backline absolutely humming for a couple of years, and at international level, I actually thought he was more often guilty of trying to overplay his hand than anything.
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Both Super and test rugby is a different game now than it was in the mid-90s as defensive patterns are so much better in today's rugby. As much as I liked Mehrts and Spencer in their time they would need to change their style with less time and space to operate.
It's good that the ABs have had a number of quality 1st 5s over the years so we can have this debtate. You could throw Culhane into the mix based on the 1996 SA tour.
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I think the strength of Cruden's play was always his option taking and how he linked up with those around him. When he took the ball to the line, he was dangerous because he always found a good pass to someone like SBW. I don't really think he had glaring weaknesses - he just lacked the out and and out x-factor of someone like Barrett (even though he was a great attacking player in his own right).
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The missed opportunity (from injuries, availability and incumbent players) was the Cruden/SBW partnership in tests.
It never happened enough but the cameos we had were awesome.For the same reasons it never happened enough at the Chiefs either.
That injury wrecked half an hour against Ireland in the 60-0 thrashing had the makings of being Cruden's highlight game to end them all. He was simply on fire that night and the combo of him making halfbreaks with SBW steaming in off his shoulder was the stuff that has you wondering how someone can be that good.
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Excellent at Super Rugby level.
Very good at AB level.
Always felt he struggled a bit if the pack wasn't on top, which differentiates the greats from the goods.
Goal-kicking was acceptable, but not world-class.
Decent defender, and developed some nice kicks out of hand.I've been watching since '87. Carter, Mehrts, Spencer on his day are probably all better. I'd most definitely have him ahead of Tony Browne though, as much as I like Tony we are talking a bit journeyman at AB level.
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He's started a World Cup final and won 2 Super Rugby competitions, so I absolutely don't blame him for taking the sure thing. Guaranteed millions or fighting for a place in history... I'd probably take the money too.
That said, there's still way more he could have achieved, and even though he should be in the prime of his career he is not sticking around to fight for his jersey. I think ranking him alongside our all time greats would be based on potential, because he never actually nailed down the starting position for a decent length of time. Rattue put out an article the other day... obviously I didn't click on it but the headline called Cruden the nearly man of NZ rugby, which I think is about right.
Personally, I haven't seen a better first five at playing at the line, and his ability to bring his backline into the game is up there with the very best (better than Carter IMO). @Kirwan mentioned not playing at first receiver enough, which isn't really a problem for me because the results came either as a result of his positioning or in spite of it, but either way the results were good so we won't know. But yes, long kicking game and goal kicking were an issue. Sometimes he overplayed the chipkick, but even Carter had that issue... sometimes I think it's a Kiwi thing.
Probably about equal with Spencer for me, ahead of Brown and Evans, but behind Carter, Merhts, Fox.
I wish he was sticking around, I'd love to see him and Barrett pushing each other for that spot.
