Law trials and changes
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@machpants said in NH International Rugby:
Scrum tweak trial
Six Nations: World Rugby to trial new scrum law to improve safety
World Rugby has announced that a new law that is designed to improve scrum stability and protect hookers will be trialled during this year's Six Nations.
Re-posted this here in case others don't pick it u.
Any opinions from the Front Row club?
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I'll post here to save cluttering up a match thread
So, the TMO and the fould play crack down. Made the game better you reckon?
We've got games being fucked up red cards (a double whammy for Italy), some incredibly marginal. Rugby being broken down to super slow-mo which removes all context and nuance in a decision. And yes, i understand, and even sympathise with the reasoning.
However, then, after each game, the trial begins. Matches are trawled through, and incidences where cards weren't given are dragged up. Dipshits like Rassie Erasmus make idiotic twitter posts which stir up the dipshits. Claims of conspiracies and favouritism get dragged up. And thats after the spectacle of absolute fluffybunnies like Jonny Sexton pleading for more cards in a game where a team has 12 fucking players on teh field and you are winning by 50. Seriously fuck Jonny Sexton the weak fluffybunny.
Has any of this really made the game better? Is it safer now you reckon than it was say 5 years ago?
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@mariner4life said in Law trials and changes:
I'll post here to save cluttering up a match thread
So, the TMO and the fould play crack down. Made the game better you reckon?
We've got games being fucked up red cards (a double whammy for Italy), some incredibly marginal. Rugby being broken down to super slow-mo which removes all context and nuance in a decision. And yes, i understand, and even sympathise with the reasoning.
However, then, after each game, the trial begins. Matches are trawled through, and incidences where cards weren't given are dragged up. Dipshits like Rassie Erasmus make idiotic twitter posts which stir up the dipshits. Claims of conspiracies and favouritism get dragged up. And thats after the spectacle of absolute fluffybunnies like Jonny Sexton pleading for more cards in a game where a team has 12 fucking players on teh field and you are winning by 50. Seriously fuck Jonny Sexton the weak fluffybunny.
Has any of this really made the game better? Is it safer now you reckon than it was say 5 years ago?
No.
The game is still based around having huge bodies crash into each other causing trauma (apparently) similar to that of a car crash.
I dunno how to fix it though as most of my ideas would likely make or be perceived to make the game less safe (e.g., reducing the number of subs or amount of subs you can use).
One change I would make is only using the red card for filth and using a report system where guys get YC and lose a lot of games for reckless/dangerous play.
Another would be changing the reffing of the offside line so teams had to be clearly onside, with a line drawn perpendicular to the most forward facing part of a player attached to the ruck (even if they are on the ground), and I'd allow teams to pull in the half back. Fuck em if they don't protect the little fluffybunny.
Jesus, I just read that and its clear to me that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.
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@mariner4life we hand out red cards as a deterrent to try and make the game safe, then judiciaries are handing out discounts for being a good bloke or having a clean record.
Where's the line?
20 minute red cards, player ejected. Go hard at the judiciary.
Won't stop high shots. Might reduce them. And give the lawyers for WR something to cling to...
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@bones said in Law trials and changes:
@gt12 said in Law trials and changes:
(e.g., reducing the number of subs or amount of subs you can use)
I can see that having the exact opposite effect. Tired players are more prone to mistakes.
I thought that too then decided that tired bodies on tired bodies is preferable to the mix we get now where some raging behemoth comes on to smash everyone that hasn't been subbed.
However, the cat is out of the bag now and it will be very hard to stop coaches gaming the system. They will manage to get subs on for 'injuries' all the time
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@crucial said in Law trials and changes:
However, the cat is out of the bag now and it will be very hard to stop coaches gaming the system. They will manage to get subs on for 'injuries' all the time
spot on
Saffers with 'injuries' before tactical substitutions;
BloodgateIt'll be gamed, and frequently.
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@bones said in Law trials and changes:
@crucial said in Law trials and changes:
tired bodies on tired bodies
Yeah not sure I see the sense in that!
As opposed to fresh bodies against tired bodies.
If you pick people to play 80, the body shape is different. It's definitely worth considering
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@nzzp said in Law trials and changes:
@bones said in Law trials and changes:
@crucial said in Law trials and changes:
tired bodies on tired bodies
Yeah not sure I see the sense in that!
As opposed to fresh bodies against tired bodies.
If you pick people to play 80, the body shape is different. It's definitely worth considering
Probably 90% of the cards we're seeing, are players being lazy and/or making mistakes. I just don't see the logic that it's going to improve if we add more tired players.
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@nzzp said in Law trials and changes:
'injuries' before tactical substitutions;
There's an easy way to address this: play on.
"But sir he's a second rower for our scrum" - then play the scrum with one of your flankers in there. It isn't a specialist position according to the Laws.
"But sir he's our hooker for the lineout" - someone else can throw; again - not in the Laws.
"But sir he's a prop for the scrum" - and he's been down "injured" four times this half, so he should be replaced immediately or I'll penalise you for unsportsmanlike conduct.
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New Zealand Rugby has asked World Rugby for a "Clarification in Law" about the legality of a player jumping over a tackler.
Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Request
NZR seeks clarity on 2 issues:
Law 9.17 states “a player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground”.
Law 9.11 states “players must not do anything that is dangerous to others including leading with elbow or forearm”.
Law 9.7 states “ a player must not intentionally infringe any law of the game”
Q.1 When a player hurdles/jumps over a tackler who is attempting to make a low legal tackle, this stops the defender from being able to tackle the ball carrier (as the ball carrier is now in the air and not able to be tackled). This seems unfair and against law 9.7 “unfair play”.
In SRP round 1 Pita Gus hurdles Aaron Smith, re lands on his feet and then dives to scoreNZ Rugby wants to know is this legal or illegal, unfair play or unfair and dangerous play?
Q.2 In 2021, Jonny May scored by leaping/diving over a covering tackler and scoring in the corner. His dive/leap and twist allowed him to score directly in one movement.NZ Rugby wants to know if this is legal/illegal, unfair play or unfair and dangerous play.
Clarification of the designated members of the Rugby Committee
A.1 We agree – jumping to hurdle a potential tackler is dangerous play, as is the act of a ball carrier jumping into a tackle. Even if no contact is made, we believe this act is in clear contravention of law 9.11, and runs contrary to the game-wide focus on player welfare.
In this specific case the sanction should be a PK against the ball carrier.
A.2 A ball carrier may dive with the ball in order to score a try, and we all agree that should be allowed. From an equity perspective, if they do so, a defender may attempt to make a safe and legal tackle on that player. As we have said above, jumping to avoid a tackle should be regarded as dangerous play and should be sanctioned accordingly,even if no contact is made.
Player welfare should remain the priority deciding factor for match officials in these very rare situations. In such instances as this rare example, which involves great player skill and dexterity, match officials have to make a judgement call as to which actions have taken place. If there is any element of dangerous play, in line with the above ruling, then a try cannot be the reward.
In principle, in a try scoring situation, if the action is deemed to be a dive forward for a try, then it should be permitted. If a player is deemed to have left the ground to avoid a tackle; or to jump, or hurdle a potential tackler, then this is dangerous play and should be sanctioned accordingly. -
@stargazer Wonder if jumping in the lineouts to catch a throw in is considered "jumping to avoid a tackle" as lineout jumpers cannot be played (tackled) by the opposition until the return to the ground. Suppose you could say the same about players leaping high into the air to catch lofted kicks knowing they cannot be tackled until they reach the ground.
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@higgins said in Law trials and changes:
@stargazer Wonder if jumping in the lineouts to catch a throw in is considered "jumping to avoid a tackle" as lineout jumpers cannot be played (tackled) by the opposition until the return to the ground. Suppose you could say the same about players leaping high into the air to catch lofted kicks knowing they cannot be tackled until they reach the ground.
no issue with that.
I'm still pissy about jumping to catch a pass being a penalty, but them's the Laws deciding Lions tests
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@bones said in Law trials and changes:
@nzzp said in Law trials and changes:
@bones said in Law trials and changes:
@crucial said in Law trials and changes:
tired bodies on tired bodies
Yeah not sure I see the sense in that!
As opposed to fresh bodies against tired bodies.
If you pick people to play 80, the body shape is different. It's definitely worth considering
Probably 90% of the cards we're seeing, are players being lazy and/or making mistakes. I just don't see the logic that it's going to improve if we add more tired players.
but we don't see more reds from that late in the game I don't think. The injury argument is different - but I don't see it as open and shut case. Tired bodies + fresh bodies can't be good, and that's the elephant in the room we're not considering.
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Have your say on welfare-focused rugby law trials
World Rugby is giving everyone involved in the game the chance to have their say on the welfare-driven global law trials which have taken place over the last nine months. A survey is now live giving fans, players, officials and anyone else with an interest in the game a chance to make your voice heard. The questionnaire will remain available until 28 March.
Short period for a survey.
World Rugby is giving everyone involved in the game the chance to have their say on the welfare-driven global law trials which have taken place over the last nine months. A survey is now live giving fans, players, officials and anyone else with an interest in the game a chance to make your voice heard. The questionnaire will remain available until 28 March.
In July 2021, World Rugby announced that a package of law trials, focused on improving the welfare of players, would be trialed across the global game. Those law trials are:- 50:22: This law trial is intended to create space via a tactical choice for players to drop out of the defensive line in order to prevent their opponents from kicking for touch, reducing impact of defensive line speed
- Goal-line drop out: This law trial is intended to reduce the number of scrums, reward good defence, encourage counter-attacking and increase the rate of ball in play
- Pre-bound pods of players: Outlawing the practice of pods of three or more players being pre-bound prior to receiving the ball – the sanction will be a penalty kick
- Sanctioning the lower limb clear-out: Penalising players who target/drop their weight onto the lower limbs of a jackler – the sanction will be a penalty kick
- Tightening law relating to latching: One-player latch to be permitted, but this player has the same responsibilities as a first arriving player (i.e. must stay on feet, enter through gate and not fall to floor) – the sanction will be a penalty kick
The results of the survey will be used alongside detailed data analysis and coach, player, referee and medical feedback to help inform the decision of the Law Review Group (LRG), which will make a final recommendation to the World Rugby High Performance Rugby Committee, before the World Rugby Council considers the recommendations in May. Should the law trials be approved by the Council, they would become full laws of the game in July 2022.
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done
really disappointed i wasn't allowed to talk about red cards
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@mariner4life said in Law trials and changes:
done
really disappointed i wasn't allowed to talk about red cards
I moaned in the comments about that.
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Mine: I don't believe player welfare has been improved in any of these rule changes. I believe that there is a differentiation between accidental or incidental contact that should not be treated the same as what is traditionally understood to be foul play. Further that the product is being ruined as game altering decisions are being made subjectively and haphazardly diminishing the attractiveness of the professional game. Instead World Rugby is ignoring evidence based approaches in reducing the incidence of head injuries. The stand down period for suspected concussions should be longer. Players should be placed on a report system for all but serious, deliberate acts of foul play just like after match citations and the appropriate sanctions should have increased severity.
