NH club rugby
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Perhaps the French should look at what they're doing wrong. And before WR have a knee-jerk reaction, they should determine the circumstances and see if a rule change would ensure it wouldn't have eventuated.
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@Derm-McCrum Is there some stats on rugby deaths world wide? Why is France doing so badly at it? Hopefully that'll be looked at, not knee-jerk... I'm not holding out much hope tho.
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I'd imagine Lima and Julian make a big impact at the dinner table though....
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@canefan I wonder if they are aware that most of the ABs they buy either have only a few caps for a reason, or the ones with a decent amount of caps, are usually past thier best...
Looking back, very few have left in thier prime, or at least still with more than just a couple of years left...McAlister, Piutau, Vito, Luatua, although the 2 latter had not established themselves as 1st choice ABs (for one reason or another...)
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@taniwharugby said in NH club rugby:
@canefan I wonder if they are aware that most of the ABs they buy either have only a few caps for a reason, or the ones with a decent amount of caps, are usually past thier best...
Looking back, very few have left in thier prime, or at least still with more than just a couple of years left...McAlister, Piutau, Vito, Luatua, although the 2 latter had not established themselves as 1st choice ABs (for one reason or another...)
I guess they figure they should still be better than the guys they have. It's lazy, like the ozzies when they used to pay hand over fist for their league converts, but it is easier than developing their own talent. Didn't I read somewhere that England has the highest player numbers at amateur level?
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@canefan highly likely, I was astounded at the number of clubs they have over there, the one I played for had 5 senior sides, yet on any given Saturday, 2 or 3 of them couldnt field a full team (one time we started with 13, and during the game one guy got 2 yellow cards, then a red...again, haha) and none of them wanted to be the team to be absorbed into the other 4...
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@Machpants said in NH club rugby:
Nice graphic, it'd be interesting to see the Japanese Top League and even SR (a smaller number) in there too.
@Derm-McCrum It would also be interesting to see the NZ list. I'm guessing that while there may be a lot of Samoa eligible players in the NZ system the actual country of birth numbers might be different?
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@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
On the topic of NZ players and other nationalities, here’s the top 12 birth countries with players contracted outside their domestic scene and where they are playing in Europe.
Do you know how far down the various systems those numbers are for - ie in England is it just Premiership or for Wales, Scotland and Ireland is it just the Pro14 regions or does it go further down?
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@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
On the topic of NZ players and other nationalities, here’s the top 12 birth countries with players contracted outside their domestic scene and where they are playing in Europe.
Do you know how far down the various systems those numbers are for - ie in England is it just Premiership or for Wales, Scotland and Ireland is it just the Pro14 regions or does it go further down?
I did PRO12, Top 14, ProD2, Eng Premiership & Championship.
I also did Japanese Top League but didn’t include in that one. I have it in others. I’ll put up a few more by end of week - work distracting me.
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@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
On the topic of NZ players and other nationalities, here’s the top 12 birth countries with players contracted outside their domestic scene and where they are playing in Europe.
Do you know how far down the various systems those numbers are for - ie in England is it just Premiership or for Wales, Scotland and Ireland is it just the Pro14 regions or does it go further down?
I did PRO12, Top 14, ProD2, Eng Premiership & Championship.
I also did Japanese Top League but didn’t include in that one. I have it in others. I’ll put up a few more by end of week - work distracting me.
First off, get a better work/life balance and up your game will you? There are people here depending on you.
So, for England and France those numbers are spread between what around 25-27 clubs each? Italy the numbers are spread between 2? 4,3 and 3 for The Celts?
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@taniwharugby https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/09/rugby-union-injuries-latest-season-highest-level-15-years-concussions
Here the conclusion of less concussions but more time off required doesn't make sense to me. Far more likely to be a greater awareness of concussion, and player's now admitting symptoms or pushing back against staff trying to rush them back.
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@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
On the topic of NZ players and other nationalities, here’s the top 12 birth countries with players contracted outside their domestic scene and where they are playing in Europe.
Do you know how far down the various systems those numbers are for - ie in England is it just Premiership or for Wales, Scotland and Ireland is it just the Pro14 regions or does it go further down?
I did PRO12, Top 14, ProD2, Eng Premiership & Championship.
I also did Japanese Top League but didn’t include in that one. I have it in others. I’ll put up a few more by end of week - work distracting me.
First off, get a better work/life balance and up your game will you? There are people here depending on you.
So, for England and France those numbers are spread between what around 25-27 clubs each? Italy the numbers are spread between 2? 4,3 and 3 for The Celts?
Sorry about the tardiness.
England - Premiership 12 clubs, Championship 12 clubs
France - Top 14 - 14 clubs - ProD2 - 16 clubs
Ireland - 4 clubs
Wales - 4 clubs
Scotland - 2 clubs
Italy - 2 clubs
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@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Machpants said in NH club rugby:
Nice graphic, it'd be interesting to see the Japanese Top League and even SR (a smaller number) in there too.
@Derm-McCrum It would also be interesting to see the NZ list. I'm guessing that while there may be a lot of Samoa eligible players in the NZ system the actual country of birth numbers might be different?
Yes. Those are the country of birth numbers. Plenty of players moved/grew up elsewhere, particularly NZ for PI-born players. Interestingly, they've recaptured their birth nationality to play in France so they meet the EU Contonou Agreement for APC nations (African, Pacific and Caribbean).
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Here's the foreign split in Ireland. Includes 13 NZ born players with status
Joey Carbery - RQ/PQ - moved age 10
Joe Tomane - NIE - moved to Aus when young
Michael Bent - Irish passport holder, GPQ
Sean Reidy - Irish passport holder, GPQ
Dom Robertson-McCoy - GPQ
Jamison Gibson-Park - NIQ - becomes IQ June 2019
James Lowe - NIQ - contracted Dec 17 - Jun 20
Rhys Marshall - NIQ - becomes IQ Nov 2019
Tyler Bleyendaal - RIQ - contract with Munster finishes in June 2019
Alby Mathewson - NIE - medical joker injury cover until March 2019
Bundee Aki - RIQ - contracted until June 2020
Tom McCartney - RIQ - contract ends June 2020
Jarrad Butler - NIQ - moved to Aus at 13 - signed to June 2020
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Here's the ones I could glean from the NZ 2019 SR squads. A few players whose birthplace are not provided.
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@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
On the topic of NZ players and other nationalities, here’s the top 12 birth countries with players contracted outside their domestic scene and where they are playing in Europe.
Do you know how far down the various systems those numbers are for - ie in England is it just Premiership or for Wales, Scotland and Ireland is it just the Pro14 regions or does it go further down?
I did PRO12, Top 14, ProD2, Eng Premiership & Championship.
I also did Japanese Top League but didn’t include in that one. I have it in others. I’ll put up a few more by end of week - work distracting me.
First off, get a better work/life balance and up your game will you? There are people here depending on you.
So, for England and France those numbers are spread between what around 25-27 clubs each? Italy the numbers are spread between 2? 4,3 and 3 for The Celts?
Sorry about the tardiness.
England - Premiership 12 clubs, Championship 12 clubs
France - Top 14 - 14 clubs - ProD2 - 16 clubs
Ireland - 4 clubs
Wales - 4 clubs
Scotland - 2 clubs
Italy - 2 clubsApology accepted.
It helps put more flesh on the bones of those numbers. In some ways it paints a worse picture than one may have thought. From those figures and the others you've supplied it seems England, France and Japan have over 30% of their professional players born abroad. Obviously some of those are genuine cases of English, French etc people that were just born elsewhere but I doubt those are significant numbers. For England (grasping at straws here), there is a fair chunk of NH born players and this I'd think was always so with many Irish, Scots and Welsh playing in England. Nonetheless though it is not a good picture.
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@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH club rugby:
@Derm-McCrum said in NH club rugby:
On the topic of NZ players and other nationalities, here’s the top 12 birth countries with players contracted outside their domestic scene and where they are playing in Europe.
Do you know how far down the various systems those numbers are for - ie in England is it just Premiership or for Wales, Scotland and Ireland is it just the Pro14 regions or does it go further down?
I did PRO12, Top 14, ProD2, Eng Premiership & Championship.
I also did Japanese Top League but didn’t include in that one. I have it in others. I’ll put up a few more by end of week - work distracting me.
First off, get a better work/life balance and up your game will you? There are people here depending on you.
So, for England and France those numbers are spread between what around 25-27 clubs each? Italy the numbers are spread between 2? 4,3 and 3 for The Celts?
Sorry about the tardiness.
England - Premiership 12 clubs, Championship 12 clubs
France - Top 14 - 14 clubs - ProD2 - 16 clubs
Ireland - 4 clubs
Wales - 4 clubs
Scotland - 2 clubs
Italy - 2 clubsApology accepted.
It helps put more flesh on the bones of those numbers. In some ways it paints a worse picture than one may have thought. From those figures and the others you've supplied it seems England, France and Japan have over 30% of their professional players born abroad. Obviously some of those are genuine cases of English, French etc people that were just born elsewhere but I doubt those are significant numbers. For England (grasping at straws here), there is a fair chunk of NH born players and this I'd think was always so with many Irish, Scots and Welsh playing in England. Nonetheless though it is not a good picture.
England has a lot of domestic-born players though within its two leagues - 802 players is the largest although I don't have the numbers in the French academies so that would bump it up a bit.
The Irish, Welsh, Scots migration has always ben there - currently average 50 in each case - and obviously is one of the reasons why London Irish, Welsh & Scottish were set up, and that the IRFU's fifth branch, Exiles, continues to operate in England to track Irish-born and Irish-qualified players.
The largest foreign cohort in Irish rugby is now English (13 players), whereas a few years ago, the SH cohort was far bigger around 55-60 in total. Lucifora's Evacuation has whittled these down considerably, and more are leaving/going this season - Ulster's squad looks positively green with over a dozen players cleared out in the last while and their SA influence has been completely wiped out with just Coetzee remaining to see out his contract until June (although McFarland would like IRFU to break the rules and re-sign him for another year or so.) Ulster new management and coaches are getting the message loud and clear - no more big spending after the last few year's fiasco, and develop your academies instead. Hence, Ulster having to field 3-4 academy players in a European cup tie this weekend - unheard of in Irish rugby before. That's the essential difference between union-run and privately-run, although a few Prem clubs seem to be adopting this approach in recent times.
