Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season
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@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
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@No-Quarter said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
For starters, we should expect us to win.
However, if we do lose, and one may be acceptable, it will matter how we play and whether we can put teams under pressure across the game, especially in the last 20.
If we lose three games, I think there is a very good argument for us to get a new coach. Jamie Joseph is in New Zealand, Cotter is here, so we could probably build a far more (internationally) experienced team.
If we had the likes of JJ, Cotter and Schmidt (yes too late for him) involved we'd have a much stronger coaching team than what we have right now.
Would we? I'd say "much different...."
If we apply the same blowtorch to their results, how well do they stand up?
Joe just coached a disastrous RC for Australia - including I believe their heaviest ever defeat.
Vern took his almost all conquering Blues down to Christchurch and lost to the worst Crusaders side in memory. A little remembered fact is that they also didn't top the log of the regular season, so I'm pretty doubtful that he can meet the expectations of unbeaten seasons.
Jamie and Japan....
All good coaches nonetheless.
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I think we've already blown a decent season, could be closer to hitting annus horribilis than a decent season if not careful just based on results. (as we have played well in patches)
In saying that I think we can salvage some pride with a couple of wins, but lose 0-3 against the big 3 and you would have to ask the question
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
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@bayimports said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
I think we've already blown a decent season, could be closer to hitting annus horribilis than a decent season if not careful just based on results. (as we have played well in patches)
most AB losses in a year was 6
1998 was 5
We're at 3, and counting.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
Yes - at some point everyone reaches the end. But, I don't think Ardie's showing diminished physical attributes in terms of speed and strength - so it's likely form, which should be able to be coached.
On the other hand, we've got Sammy Cane, who they're probably squeezing the last drops out of the lemon - but, given the sudden loosie injury crisis, I'm quite pleased they've persisted with him. But, the end of this year will be far enough, I think.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
Yes - at some point everyone reaches the end. But, I don't think Ardie's showing diminished physical attributes in terms of speed and strength - so it's likely form, which should be able to be coached.
On the other hand, we've got Sammy Cane, who they're probably squeezing the last drops out of the lemon - but, given the sudden loosie injury crisis, I'm quite pleased they've persisted with him. But, the end of this year will be far enough, I think.
agree on both counts. A coach needs to balance keeping these guys on side, and also knowing when to pull the trigger and have the tough conversation.
For all that, maybe the guys are hitting their internal KPIs, and we just don't know it, because rugby coaches treat everything like a fucking state secret.
Just on Sam Cane, i think the games on this tour will suit him far more than playing a young fast and open Australia team. But i don't think there are many games left in those legs.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
Yes - at some point everyone reaches the end. But, I don't think Ardie's showing diminished physical attributes in terms of speed and strength - so it's likely form, which should be able to be coached.
On the other hand, we've got Sammy Cane, who they're probably squeezing the last drops out of the lemon - but, given the sudden loosie injury crisis, I'm quite pleased they've persisted with him. But, the end of this year will be far enough, I think.
For all that, maybe the guys are hitting their internal KPIs, and we just don't know it, because rugby coaches treat everything like a fucking state secret.
I guess they've got to balance that everything they tell us, they're telling the opposition coaches. And regardless of how stellar my performance reviews might be, I'm not sure I want them published and pored over by strange Polish chicks!
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
everything they tell us, they're telling the opposition coaches
as your yourself said in your passionate Razor defence above, the opposition already have all of it anyway.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
Leads with the strawman this time. Nice.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
everything they tell us, they're telling the opposition coaches
as your yourself said in your passionate Razor defence above, the opposition already have all of it anyway.
They probably have - but, if the interviewer asks, "What went wrong with the lineout, Razor", I'm not sure he needs to give a detailed analysis of what they were trying to do - at least make the opposition do their homework.
Not just Razor - aside from the couple of weeks where it genuinely looked like they were going to axe Fozzie, I mainly supported him.
Even if Razor loses all five matches on this tour, I highly doubt they will sack him. At present he's not remotely close.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
loses all five matches on this tour, I highly doubt they will sack him
ooof, i dunno about that one. The PR machine would have to work overtime to keep him in teh job.
And if that is no longer required, then the ABs really are dead.
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If we lost to Italy and he stayed in the job, it would show that the NZRU is completely rotten.
I actually think / hope we'll go OK, but that feeling is also very selection dependent. I reserve the right to go full Tim if some of these strange picks continue and we pay the price.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
loses all five matches on this tour, I highly doubt they will sack him
ooof, i dunno about that one. The PR machine would have to work overtime to keep him in teh job.
And if that is no longer required, then the ABs really are dead.
Well, see Rob Penney, for example.
Rob had a shocker of a season, but maybe a couple of good results saved him - along with mitigating circumstances of injuries. But, that was a shocker on top of the shocker the Waratahs axed him for, so there's been a high degree of tolerance.
Can't see it happening, but if we lost to Japan - and then we lost the big three matches - I'm sure we'd run out all the guns vs Italy to make sure we didn't lose that one. And the Japan loss would be put down to "experimental".
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@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
If we lost to Italy and he stayed in the job, it would show that the NZRU is completely rotten.
I actually think / hope we'll go OK, but that feeling is also very selection dependent. I reserve the right to go full Tim if some of these strange picks continue and we pay the price.
Last time we played Italy, we put 90 on them, so I'd expect I could coach a full strength AB team to beat them.
We beat England (admittedly, at home) with a week's coaching. We should have learned a few things since then and I don't think they've played since, so I'm quietly hopeful about that one.
Japan gave us a scare with a makeshift team a couple of years ago - but, the results of this vintage don't seem as good? England, Italy and Fiji all beat them handily, so surely we've got enough quality in our team to win this one.
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Italy are weird. They had an appalling world cup, but their home 6-nations results are decent.
