Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
then a broken team lose to Italy.
you were doing well up to that point
No chance we lose to Italy, even on the back of losses. The quality is too good.
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@BerniesCorner said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
Leadership is key. At times it has been lacking this year.
Coaches picked ScoBa supported by JBar and RD. Not people that jump out as keeping cool heads in a crisis.
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If we had jettisoned the half-dead wood at the start of the season and brought in new guys, I would have been completely okay with our performances so far, except Argentina.
I understand the idea of smoothing the transition to get results while you build for the future - but if you don't get the results, your idea has failed. We could have rolled out the baby blacks and had exactly the same results (or better) so far this year with more of an eye to the future - so you have to ask, why didn't we? And that's on the coach.
For me, this tour is kinda more of the same - we're still in the bedding in the new game plan period - but based on squad selections the coach's plan may well be more of the same, and if so I want results. -
@nzzp said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
then a broken team lose to Italy.
you were doing well up to that point
No chance we lose to Italy, even on the back of losses. The quality is too good.
at no point did i say it was likely to happen, i was simply painting a picture.
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At the start of the season I said four losses for a pass mark on the season, but also that we would struggle mightily to get there if we dropped a game to either Argentina or Australia.
Really, I had in mind a fair likelihood that we'd drop two in South Africa and two on this EOYT - but, also a prospect of losing to any of England, Argentina or Oz earlier in the season. But, also a prospect that we'd pick up a win or two that somewhat surprised me - and we'll need at least one of those on this tour. I'll be rapt if we win all three - a bit disappointed, but not hugely surprised if we win only one.
Can't agree with this idea of expecting us to win every game. Unless your "expect" means something different to mine.
I'd like us to win every game. I want us to win every game. And I expect them to strive to the utmost to win every game.
But, expecting to win ignores half of the reality that the opposition are striving to do exactly the same. And that part of the reason we had long unbeaten records vs the likes of Ireland and Argentina is that they were historically a bit shit.
Now we've had 25 years of professional rugby. We've exported untold players and coaches overseas, who have carried our IP to the opposition. And everyone is at the cutting edge with video analysis - so if you come up with a fabulous innovation one week, by the next week the opposition have worked out a counter and the following week your innovation is probably being used against you. So where is our massive competitive advantage to base this continued expectation of perfection? We're not the Harlem Globetrotters who carry a captive bunch of losers with us.
I can't really see how expecting to win every game in this day and age is grounded in reality.
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
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@nzzp said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
then a broken team lose to Italy.
you were doing well up to that point
No chance we lose to Italy, even on the back of losses. The quality is too good.
Agreed. It’s only Italy, not Scotland
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@MN5 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@nzzp said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
then a broken team lose to Italy.
you were doing well up to that point
No chance we lose to Italy, even on the back of losses. The quality is too good.
Agreed. It’s only Italy, not Scotland
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We have uncovered a lot of new players this year. 2/3 will be a good result.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@MN5 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@nzzp said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
then a broken team lose to Italy.
you were doing well up to that point
No chance we lose to Italy, even on the back of losses. The quality is too good.
Agreed. It’s only Italy, not Scotland
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
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@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
For starters, we should expect us to win.
However, if we do lose, and one may be acceptable, it will matter how we play and whether we can put teams under pressure across the game, especially in the last 20.
If we lose three games, I think there is a very good argument for us to get a new coach. Jamie Joseph is in New Zealand, Cotter is here, so we could probably build a far more (internationally) experienced team.
I agree, I think Razor's gameplan / tactics have been found out at test level, and if he can't adjust and put some good performances on the park on the EOYT then I hope NZR grows a pair of balls and cuts him, like they should have done to Fozzie regardless of that SA win at the time. If we had the likes of JJ, Cotter and Schmidt (yes too late for him) involved we'd have a much stronger coaching team than what we have right now.
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@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
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@No-Quarter said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
For starters, we should expect us to win.
However, if we do lose, and one may be acceptable, it will matter how we play and whether we can put teams under pressure across the game, especially in the last 20.
If we lose three games, I think there is a very good argument for us to get a new coach. Jamie Joseph is in New Zealand, Cotter is here, so we could probably build a far more (internationally) experienced team.
If we had the likes of JJ, Cotter and Schmidt (yes too late for him) involved we'd have a much stronger coaching team than what we have right now.
Would we? I'd say "much different...."
If we apply the same blowtorch to their results, how well do they stand up?
Joe just coached a disastrous RC for Australia - including I believe their heaviest ever defeat.
Vern took his almost all conquering Blues down to Christchurch and lost to the worst Crusaders side in memory. A little remembered fact is that they also didn't top the log of the regular season, so I'm pretty doubtful that he can meet the expectations of unbeaten seasons.
Jamie and Japan....
All good coaches nonetheless.
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I think we've already blown a decent season, could be closer to hitting annus horribilis than a decent season if not careful just based on results. (as we have played well in patches)
In saying that I think we can salvage some pride with a couple of wins, but lose 0-3 against the big 3 and you would have to ask the question
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
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@bayimports said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
I think we've already blown a decent season, could be closer to hitting annus horribilis than a decent season if not careful just based on results. (as we have played well in patches)
most AB losses in a year was 6
1998 was 5
We're at 3, and counting.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
Yes - at some point everyone reaches the end. But, I don't think Ardie's showing diminished physical attributes in terms of speed and strength - so it's likely form, which should be able to be coached.
On the other hand, we've got Sammy Cane, who they're probably squeezing the last drops out of the lemon - but, given the sudden loosie injury crisis, I'm quite pleased they've persisted with him. But, the end of this year will be far enough, I think.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@mariner4life said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@gt12 said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
@Chris-B said in Poll: AB wins on EOYT for a decent season:
And if you then start dropping players and sacking coaches because of these delusional expectations you'll rapidly go into a downward spiral where you're trawling Heartland rugby for All Blacks, because everyone at the higher level is a proven failure!
The slipperiest of slopes as used to justify poor coaching and selection.
Equally hopeless is analysis that says - we lost - the coaches are fucking useless. This player made a mistake, we must drop him.
As just one example, half the Fern has been calling for Ardie Savea to be dropped. But, he's the reigning World Player of the Year. Wouldn't it be a lot more sensible to back him, coach him where he's been making errors and expect that he'll come right? Because the standard you're aspiring to is winning the WPotY - it seems to me that Ardie is the most likely to reach that standard - since he's proven he can do it - no matter how promising Sititi or Sotutu might look.
valid. ish.
The flip side is, how long do you put up with ignoring rucks, soft tackles and a misfiring run game in the hope that it all comes right? Especially when your reason is an individual award that most don't agree with most years?
You can never call for a player to get dropped after one down game. Very few players are up every single test. When a season long pattern emerges however, exactly how long are you supposed to hold on hoping for a reversal?
Yes - at some point everyone reaches the end. But, I don't think Ardie's showing diminished physical attributes in terms of speed and strength - so it's likely form, which should be able to be coached.
On the other hand, we've got Sammy Cane, who they're probably squeezing the last drops out of the lemon - but, given the sudden loosie injury crisis, I'm quite pleased they've persisted with him. But, the end of this year will be far enough, I think.
agree on both counts. A coach needs to balance keeping these guys on side, and also knowing when to pull the trigger and have the tough conversation.
For all that, maybe the guys are hitting their internal KPIs, and we just don't know it, because rugby coaches treat everything like a fucking state secret.
Just on Sam Cane, i think the games on this tour will suit him far more than playing a young fast and open Australia team. But i don't think there are many games left in those legs.
