How good are the Boks?
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@OomPB I think Rassie is THE difference for the Boks. He galvanises the team. It will be very interesting to see what happens to the team dynamic when he passes the baton on. Will it be seamless like Henry to Hansen, or fumbled like Hansen to Foster? Eras come and then they go. Staying at the top is more difficult in some ways than the getting to it.
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The springboks know how to build very well.
From their school systems to their cultural story (they have a Hollywood movie based on it).
And so they have the greatest depth that is never ending , as far as the eye can see. They got a dam movie based on their story.Unmatched. Greater than the haka if we are to compare . Invictus is mythological for all the people of the country . Uniting .
they may not be the most gifted . But I can assure you that on average, their packs have a deeper bond player to player. They always deliver and peak properly for world cups .
They are known for their set plays and they always have a very very reliable kicker . Points are always in their hand.
I do honestly believe that they are the best rugby nation . Population 60million .
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@booboo said in How good are the Boks?:
Would like the opinion of the informed expertise of The Fern, and then everbody else if we don't happen to find him, about just how good the Boks are.
Lot of talk, mainly out of Africa, that they're the best team ever. This seems to be a little bit of over-excitement due to some recent success, but they're certainly No.1 at the moment, and they certainly know how to find a way to win.
Their recent record shows that they remain vulnerable, 3x one point wins in the RWC knockouts, split series with Ireland, two wins by less than a score against No.3. Doesn't scream best team ever to me.
For example, how many of this current team would make an all time Bok team, or be in the running for an all time World XV?
You could mount arguments for Marx, Etzebeth, PSDT, Pollard, Kolbe but I always think to myself there's someone better.
Are they this good currently due to their insane depth, or relative strength of opposition.
Would appreciate genuine thoughts, particularly from our resident Saffas.
They are not the best team ever and I doubt any of us would seriously suggest otherwise. Most of my mates feel that before we can start comparing this vintage to, say, the McCaw/Carter ABs (who were a little unlucky to play during an era of weak test teams) Siya’s Boks need to put together a period of sustained dominance and dish out a few hidings.
Yesterday’s win puts the boks at 17/19 since Mt Bloody Smart. The two losses to Ireland were both in the balance at the death.
That’s a pretty good run given the depth of genuinely good test teams now.
There’s little doubt that this is the best modern Bok team. The 2009 team was pretty scary but only for a very short stint. The 97/98 Boks were also pretty good - again for a short stint. I loved both those teams. This team is better. A lot better.
In the running for best boks ever:
Beast
Marx
Malherbe
Etzebeth
PTSD
DuaneKolbe
Each of those would be in a World XV for most of 2018-2024 (or until they retired.) if you thought there was someone better you were wrong.
Add Kitshoff, Ox, Lood, RG, Kwagga, Pollard, DDA, and Am as World XV players depending on the year.
And as others have said, the quality doesn’t drop off much through the squad.
Captain’s pretty good too. Coach is an all time great. What he has achieved is astonishing - even if judged solely in rugby terms. Remember he inherited a team that had just been pumped 57-0 which somehow wasn’t their shittest recent performance.
Six years later and many of the same boks now expect to beat an All Black team that yesterday featured 9 players who laid that beating on them. Hell there are now All Blacks like Jordie, Lomax, Williams and Tale’a who have a less than 30% win rate against the Boks.
So in summary, this is a bloody good Bok team and the All Blacks must be destroyed.
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@Smuts oh, and Os du Randt was better than Beast.
And as much as PSDT has been immense, Juan Smith was his equal. Juan Smith gets forgotten like Richard Hill.
Biggest differentiator is Rassie. Along with Henry and McQueen, they are the best head coaches in the professional era IMO.
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@Smuts about your comment about era of weak test sides, NZ and certainly Oz are not as strong as they once were. Does that dilute the Boks achievements as the current SH vintages are weaker than those that have gone before? 😬
Teams can only beat what is in front of them. Boks have just managed to do what McCaw’s ABs managed twice in winning 4 in a row. Boks need to keep their foot on the throat and force this generation of ABs to have PTSD like AB teams of yore did to former Boks 😂
I remember several posters on here bemoaning how weak Bok rugby was when the ABs were posting cricket scores at times and if they were the ABs main rivals anymore. That’s quite funny now. The Boks were always going to come back and be strong. And now they are. And it is up to NZ to wrestle back the initiative. Let the ultimate rivalry continue!
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@stodders said in How good are the Boks?:
@Smuts oh, and Os du Randt was better than Beast.
And as much as PSDT has been immense, Juan Smith was his equal. Juan Smith gets forgotten like Richard Hill.
Biggest differentiator is Rassie. Along with Henry and McQueen, they are the best head coaches in the professional era IMO.
Agreed about Smith and Hill
Garland is in the conversation considering the cattle he’s had to herd most of his coaching career
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@MiketheSnow said in How good are the Boks?:
@stodders said in How good are the Boks?:
@Smuts oh, and Os du Randt was better than Beast.
And as much as PSDT has been immense, Juan Smith was his equal. Juan Smith gets forgotten like Richard Hill.
Biggest differentiator is Rassie. Along with Henry and McQueen, they are the best head coaches in the professional era IMO.
Agreed about Smith and Hill
Garland is in the conversation considering the cattle he’s had to herd most of his coaching career
Yup, Judy would be right up there
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In think we're in a pretty good space. The team that played on saturday was missing the following guys from the strongest 23 -
Kitshoff
Snyman
De Jager
Mostert
De Klerk
Arendse
WillemseI also think that the last couple of games have shown that some veterans are being played out of the by younger guys coming in rather old guys falling off (Mngomozulu v Pollard, Fassi v Le Roux and Louw vs Wiese).
We have a kind schedule until the next two games in New Zealand in 2025. Frankly it would be a failure not to dominate for the next 18months or so.
But the big elephant in the room is how we deal with an aging pack. Who do we keep in the side, who gets shifted out and who comes in. We have gotten used to having 10 to 15 world class tight forwards to pick from - that is not normal and you don't think we can just presume the next Etsebeth, Marx, Malherbe, whoever is just going to come out of nowhere.
Thar said - there are some truly great players coming through in positions 7 (our seven) to 15.
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@SidBarret wouldn’t it be funny if NZ developed numerous forward options and a forward dominated approach and the Boks ended up with functioning front row, athletic back row and insane back line. It’d be a complete role reversal of the last 30 years 😬
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For me this team is NOT on a par with the 2008-9 bok team. The big difference is in the squad depth and coaching. One just felt that the 2008 team was not going to have any real longevity as there were very few young players coming through. The "quota" thing. The constant fighting between small minded administrators and coaches. The laager mentality. That seems to have been grown out of.
Rassie is always on about "our structures" and i think that this is the most pleasing aspect of what has transpired. South African rugby is healthy for the first time in many years... maybe in the best health ever. Appointing Kolisi captain and backing him was an inspired move by Rassie. Picking players who will die for the team. Millions of disadvantaged kids now aspire to be springboks. There is real unity in the team and the supporters. It feels like a multiracial sport now. Before, not so much.
The AB's are not vintage and of course neither are the Wallabies. Ireland just beat SA in SA.
So to answer your question...this is a good team, it has the potential to be the best ever but its not there yet. Things haven't really "clicked" Their saving grace is the self belief that rassie has cultivated, and the team culture.
In this team, Kolisi, Marx, Etzebeth, Pollard, Malherbe, de Allende, PSDT, Kolbe are indispensable. They don't come through and win the big games without those players. The transition is happening though.
