RSA vs NZ, 1st Test, Durban
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="611272" data-time="1472710909">
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<p>Except for Dale Steyn, who is head and shoulders above our bowlers. Well, most bowlers actually, his career is some all-time shit. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>He also scored more runs than 3 of our top order, despite only batting once. And being #11</p>
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<p>Yeah he is some fucken bowler and that psychotic look he has must be pretty off putting.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nicholls has probably shown enough promise to have 10 crap scores in a row but people will still point out the gutsy innings in a losing cause and that he should be persevered with.</p> -
<p>So I have been following this thread with some interest.</p>
<p>I thoroughly enjoyed the 2nd test match and SA's dominance. Especially given that you Kiwis are highly likely to return the thumping favour when it comes to the Rugby Championship - so I'll take my sweets for now ;)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But from my view, the difference in that test was obviously the Proteas first innings. And as well as they performed, the Black Caps had some chances to possibly shoot us out for sub-300. Some missed chances, one or two marginal calls that went SA's way, and some unfortunate use / non-use of DRS by the kiwis. Could have been a different game had even some of that gone the other way.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I guess the point I am making is that the Proteas are not quite as good as the result may suggest, nor are the Black Caps as poor.</p>
<p>Obviously Dale Steyn hitting some good form, well backed up by Philander and KG was a great help. But with Wagner, Boult and Southee the Black Caps don't have a shabby seam attack either.</p>
<p>Kane Williamson is class, and with Nicholls and even / still Ross Taylor, there is more than enough batting strength for the Caps.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="611338" data-time="1472721680">
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<p>have you seen him play spin siam?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>last time i did, it was horrible (admittedly a while ago now). great eye though.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Yeah I know there are a lot of ifs and buts and I wouldn't put even the dog house on him</p>
<p> </p>
<p>however, I do get excited by fellas that consistently put good length balls away. Warner is the best example and at the time there was no one that impressed me more than fat Jessie in his pomp. Those big scores he made and the shot over square, repeatedly, was a skill that not many have.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Perhaps Munro is more of a muse than a solution but we're not like inundated with batsmen with the necessary raw prerequisites like say, England - only joking ;)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Webb" data-cid="611277" data-time="1472712106">
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<p>So I have been following this thread with some interest.</p>
<p>I thoroughly enjoyed the 2nd test match and SA's dominance. Especially given that you Kiwis are highly likely to return the thumping favour when it comes to the Rugby Championship - so I'll take my sweets for now ;)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But from my view, the difference in that test was obviously the Proteas first innings. And as well as they performed, the Black Caps had some chances to possibly shoot us out for sub-300. Some missed chances, one or two marginal calls that went SA's way, and some unfortunate use / non-use of DRS by the kiwis. Could have been a different game had even some of that gone the other way.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I guess the point I am making is that the Proteas are not quite as good as the result may suggest, nor are the Black Caps as poor.</p>
<p>Obviously Dale Steyn hitting some good form, well backed up by Philander and KG was a great help. But with Wagner, Boult and Southee the Black Caps don't have a shabby seam attack either.</p>
<p>Kane Williamson is class, and with Nicholls and even / still Ross Taylor, there is more than enough batting strength for the Caps.</p>
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<p>Your pace attack of Steyn, Philander and Rabada is a good one - you missed Philander and Steyn for that England series, could have been a different result with them playing all 4 tests. Your batting is probably still a work in progress. </p> -
<p>I think it is the English-centric cricketing press that always declares English players as greats. Compare Steyn, Broad and Anderson after similar length careers.</p>
<p> </p>
<div>Steyn 84 tests 416 wickets at 22</div>
<div>Broad 98 tests 358 wickets at 28</div>
<div>Anderson 119 tests 463 wickets at 28</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The main difference is that Steyn doesn't have many bad days and Anderson and particularly Broad have quite a few.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Steyn should be ranked up there as one of the all time greats.</div> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="611374" data-time="1472732791">
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<p> </p>
<p>I think it is the English-centric cricketing press that always declares English players as greats. Compare Steyn, Broad and Anderson after similar length careers.</p>
<p> </p>
<div>Steyn 84 tests 416 wickets at 22</div>
<div>Broad 98 tests 358 wickets at 28</div>
<div>Anderson 119 tests 463 wickets at 28</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The main difference is that Steyn doesn't have many bad days and Anderson and particularly Broad have quite a few.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Steyn should be ranked up there as one of the all time greats.</div>
<p> </p>
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<p>
The same English-centric press especially love to talk about totals, i.e. most all time wickets/runs, rather than averages. England play so much more test cricket than most nations, it makes their veterans look even better (not that they don't have some great players),</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="611374" data-time="1472732791">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>I think it is the English-centric cricketing press that always declares English players as greats. Compare Steyn, Broad and Anderson after similar length careers.</p>
<p> </p>
<div>Steyn 84 tests 416 wickets at 22</div>
<div>Broad 98 tests 358 wickets at 28</div>
<div>Anderson 119 tests 463 wickets at 28</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The main difference is that Steyn doesn't have many bad days and Anderson and particularly Broad have quite a few.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Steyn should be ranked up there as one of the all time greats.</div>
<p> </p>
</div>
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<p> </p>
<p>It is remarkable how similar Steyn's record is to that of Hadlee at this stage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hadlee It is Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10 Tests 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63 50.8 25 36 9</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Steyn Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10 Tests 84 155 17210 9252 416 7/51 11/60 22.24 3.22 41.3 25 26 5</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="611374" data-time="1472732791">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>I think it is the English-centric cricketing press that always declares English players as greats. Compare Steyn, Broad and Anderson after similar length careers.</p>
<p> </p>
<div>Steyn 84 tests 416 wickets at 22</div>
<div>Broad 98 tests 358 wickets at 28</div>
<div>Anderson 119 tests 463 wickets at 28</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The main difference is that Steyn doesn't have many bad days and Anderson and particularly Broad have quite a few.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Steyn should be ranked up there as one of the all time greats.</div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm not sure anyone doesn't rate Steyn do they? He's regarded as a legend everywhere. Difference between Hadlee & Steyn is Hadlee had Imran, Marshall, Holding, Garner etc all pulling similar stats. Steyn stands alone in his era.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anderson & Broad were both a bit like Southee in that they took a while to be good. They don't have bad days now, but they had entire bad years at the start. Anderson has only just got his career average sub 30. Steyn was great from day 1. If you look at the last 3 years Steyn is still markedly head & shoulders above everyone, but that second group is closer - </p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://tinyurl.com/gm5wq7v'>http://tinyurl.com/gm5wq7v</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>No. 7 on that list too - Wagner with 70 @ 24.8</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SidBarret" data-cid="611377" data-time="1472734210">
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<p>It is remarkable how similar Steyn's record is to that of Hadlee at this stage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hadlee It is Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10 Tests 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63 50.8 25 36 9</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Steyn Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10 Tests 84 155 17210 9252 416 7/51 11/60 22.24 3.22 41.3 25 26 5</p>
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<p>Shame Steyn didn't have a 4 match series against the Black Caps - could have grabbed those 16 wickets to pass Sir Richard at the same stage.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="611362" data-time="1472728100">
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<p>Yeah I know there are a lot of ifs and buts and I wouldn't put even the dog house on him</p>
<p> </p>
<p>however, I do get excited by fellas that consistently put good length balls away. Warner is the best example and at the time there was no one that impressed me more than fat Jessie in his pomp. Those big scores he made and the shot over square, repeatedly, was a skill that not many have.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Perhaps Munro is more of a muse than a solution but we're not like inundated with batsmen with the necessary raw prerequisites like say, England - only joking ;)</p>
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<p>yeah i agree - guys with time and the eye to take a good ball and tonk it anyway are pretty rare, and are probably the best starting point if you want to get a world class batsman.</p>
<p>it's an oversimplification, but for tests it basically comes down to having that ability, and then having the discipline to not use it (when the ball is moving around).</p>
<p>the other thing i guess is that a diet of short form cricket with spinners bowling flat shit and him trying to whack it out of the park is no way for a guy like munro to learn to play spin. i really hope he has been working on it though, because while it's an incredible thing to be able to handle someone like dale steyn at all, it's kinda moot if you then go and make imran tahir look like the lovechild of shane warne and muralitharan.</p>
<p>another batsman, southee sorting his shit out, and ish continuing to develop and we'd be right up there.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="611376" data-time="1472733240">
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<p>The same English-centric press especially love to talk about totals,<strong> i.e. most all time wickets/runs, rather than averages. England play so much more test cricket than most nations</strong>, it makes their veterans look even better (not that they don't have some great players),</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>If that's the case how come it took so long for someone ( Cook ) to break Gooch's run scoring record ? Same with Anderson ( and Broad closing in ) on Beefy Bothams wicket taking record ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've always known Steyn was really good but if you apply the fern adage of 50 being the new 40 in terms of batting these days then that translates to him averaging late teens if he played 20-30 years ago. THAT is fucken exceptional when as Gollum alludes to an average in the late 20s nowadays is considered excellent. Not sure where rotated gets the 5% Bond>Steyn statistic, we all love Bond and he walks into an all time BC XI without question despite his short career but saying he was better than Steyn is a MASSIVE call. I think it's a case of looking back at guys who are retired and getting a bit misty eyed and putting them on a higher pedestal than they perhaps deserve. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="611422" data-time="1472771124">
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<p>Not sure where rotated gets the 5% Bond>Steyn statistic, we all love Bond and he walks into an all time BC XI without question despite his short career but saying he was better than Steyn is a MASSIVE call. I think it's a case of looking back at guys who are retired and getting a bit misty eyed and putting them on a higher pedestal than they perhaps deserve. </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>It's not really a statistic, just to my eye I just felt like Bond at his best was a more threatening, wicket taking bowler against quality batting than Steyn at his best. Steyn obviously had the long jeapordy - so as a career it isn't even close, just peak Bond to me was better.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>He has the wood on him in SR in both tests and ODI so it passes the smell test to me - but to each their own.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="611389" data-time="1472756869">
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<p>Shame Steyn didn't have a 4 match series against the Black Caps - could have grabbed those 16 wickets to pass Sir Richard at the same stage.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I was reading in the newspaper this morning that Steyn now has 68 wickets @ 16.04 vs NZ. Ouch!</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="611422" data-time="1472771124">
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<p>If that's the case how come it took so long for someone ( Cook ) to break Gooch's run scoring record ? Same with Anderson ( and Broad closing in ) on Beefy Bothams wicket taking record ?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>My point was their records today vs other nations today are inflated by playing a lot more tests.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Beefy and Gooch played 102 and 118 tests, so also had long careers.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="611547" data-time="1472805116">
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<p>My point was their records today vs other nations today are inflated by playing a lot more tests.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Beefy and Gooch played 102 and 118 tests, so also had long careers.</p>
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<p>Gooch's test career was close on 20 years - Cook is barely over 10 years - if Cook plays as long as Gooch he'll be well over 200 tests</p> -
As good a place as any for this. Guptill won't be dropped soon when his likely replacement isn't selected in the squad to tour India.
Kane Williamson (c), Martin Guptill, Tom Latham, Ross Taylor, Henry Nicholls, BJ Watling, Jimmy Neesham, Mitchell Santner, Mark Craig, Ish Sodhi, Tim Southee, Trent Boult, Neil Wagner, Doug Bracewell, Luke Ronchi.
So Neesham is back until he gets injured again and Raval and Henry have been dropped.
