RSA vs NZ, 1st Test, Durban

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="610968" data-time="1472604835">
And Andy Caddick had the privilege of bowling to me in Christchurch 2nd grade so not only could he not make Canterbury he couldn't even make 1st grade club cricket!</blockquote>
 
Maybe he just bowled shit in Christchurch. He did an excellent impression of a bowling machine for Nathan Astle in 2002.

No Quarter

I really thought Guppy would address those holes, he's worked extensively with Crowe and also taken time to play the longer form up north to work on his game. So it's not through a lack of effort. He just goes too hard at the ball all the time and gets caught in the slips. He would be far more comfortable against the older ball I reckon, and I was hoping he might drop down once BMac moved on. Opening is a bloody tough gig.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="610981" data-time="1472606774">
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I really thought Guppy would address those holes, he's worked extensively with Crowe and also taken time to play the longer form up north to work on his game. So it's not through a lack of effort. He just goes too hard at the ball all the time and gets caught in the slips. He would be far more comfortable against the older ball I reckon, and I was hoping he might drop down once BMac moved on. Opening is a bloody tough gig.
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Plants his foot early, so he's an lbw candidate as well.
 
And when neither of those things happens he seems to engineer some other way to get himself out cheaply.
 
Agree that it's very disappointing. A particular reason they probably won't drop him unless the alternatives are significantly better is keeping him tuned against international quality bowling for the shorter forms.

MN5

I think Guppys "aura" in the team must play a part. His ODI record is exceptional so he has a bit of weight to throw around in the dressing room based on that one would think.......Bell, Papps and Fulton that hyrdro11 mentioned certainly never had that string to their bows.

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="611015" data-time="1472610389">
I think Guppys "aura" in the team must play a part. His ODI record is exceptional so he has a bit of weight to throw around in the dressing room based on that one would think.......Bell, Papps and Fulton that hyrdro11 mentioned certainly never had that string to their bows.</blockquote>
 
Nah. 
Believe it or not. He's just having his extended chance that Hesson has given to all his punts in the 3 or 4 problem positions*. Rather than re-shuffling for the sake of shuffling. And there's no one knocking down the door. 
*except Wagner in the third seamer role.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610918" data-time="1472596862">
<div> But - I recall last time we were having this discussion about Jeetan and the wonders of English County Cricket (vs Mark Craig), you came up with the bold assertion that there was only about two NZ players who could get a county contract. But then a whole lot of them did - including the derided (by you) Wagner and Mark Craig. :)
 
There's simply no evidence to support your view that English County Cricket is superior to NZ domestic cricket. The best players from each make the national sides and at present, there's not a hell of a lot between England and NZ across the three forms of cricket - but, they've got 18 teams to choose from and we've only got six, so on that basis arguably our teams are stronger.
 
Then you look at the records of guys who play in both. Take Jeetan, for instance. You're telling me that he's the best bowler in county cricket. Well, he only came third in the NZ bowling averages last year.
 
Third out of the Patels that is! :)
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament</a>
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Ok, lets go. Mark Craig ended up playing for Gloucs seconds. Wagner I flagged as probably able to do well in England given his bowling style, as for the "Whole lot"? Which ones? Guys like Munro & Neesham can get gigs as T20 bash specialists - Chris Harris & Brad Hogg can still get gigs doing that.
 
There not a lot between the sides? So England, who beat Aussie last time out, beat SA in SA, beat India in India, are on par with NZ who Aussie dicked 4-0 & SA just did by an innings & have we EVER won in India? That's on par?
 
Patel in NZ domestic, I'm not arguing he is amazing in NZ conditions. That is a good line about the Patels tho'
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610888" data-time="1472589640">
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Umm really ? NZ can genuinely say that about Rugby players who can't make the All Blacks but I don't think this statement is true at all. Throw some names at me.
 
Patels attitude when batting a few years ago, and his lack of results left a pretty bitter taste to many on here as I recall. I'm sure he has improved heaps but the bar was pretty low.
 
Is this competition in which he takes 50 wickets the same one in which Hadlee took 100 ( not to mention 1000 runs ) in a season a few times ?
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No, its not. The comp Hadlee took 100 in had 23 games a year, current one has 16. 100 in a season wasn't that big a deal when Hadlee did it, the double was. Tho' Fraklin Stephenson did it the year before at the same county.. so not that amazing. Almost no one gets even close to 100 wickets in the new setup. Same way scoring 1000 by the end of May used to be a bench mark, its almost impossible now. Because its a totally different comp.
 
As for names, sure -
 
Haseem Hameed would get in to open - tho' he'll probably get called up by England for the coming tours & then score 8,000 runs. Ditto Bell-Drumond. Jos Butler can't get into the England terst team but would come into ours as keeper with Watling moving up. Sam Billings, Scott Borthwick, Jason Roy & Tom Wastley would get into the middle order. Jonathan Trott & Ian Bell can't get into England now, but they are a bit past it. Both would be a massive step up from Guptil. While Samit Patel & Ravi Bopra would both offer the batsman who bowls bit thing we want. 
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610939" data-time="1472599876">
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You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)
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Indeed, almost like he has got better... as his 258 v SA would tend to indicate.

KiwiPie

Given England's most recent test series on home soil was a 2-2 draw against Pakistan and they are bemoaning that they have only 2 test class batsmen in the top order (Cook and Root), and NZ also have 2 (Kane and Rosco) then it is hard to see where all these England batsmen are that would walk into New Zealand's test team. For Guptill, read Alex Hales - picked ahead of that long list of batsmen who would walk into NZ's team. 
 
I do think England is ahead of NZ as a test team right now - given our seamers have gone backwards and we don't have the power of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali in the middle order - but the top order batting is pretty much on a par - will struggle against any half decent attack as England's has for a while now. Test class top order batsmen are a rare species - making runs at 6 and 7 is not the same thing at all.

TeWaio

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="611123" data-time="1472638138">
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Given England's most recent test series on home soil was a 2-2 draw against Pakistan and they are bemoaning that they have only 2 test class batsmen in the top order (Cook and Root), and NZ also have 2 (Kane and Rosco) then it is hard to see where all these England batsmen are that would walk into New Zealand's test team. For Guptill, read Alex Hales - picked ahead of that long list of batsmen who would walk into NZ's team. 
 
I do think England is ahead of NZ as a test team right now - given our seamers have gone backwards and we don't have the power of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali in the middle order - but the top order batting is pretty much on a par - will struggle against any half decent attack as England's has for a while now. Test class top order batsmen are a rare species - making runs at 6 and 7 is not the same thing at all.
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Also, England's top order have the advantage of never having to face Broad and Anderson in English conditions, which has fucked many an average...

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="611123" data-time="1472638138">
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Given England's most recent test series on home soil was a 2-2 draw against Pakistan and they are bemoaning that they have only 2 test class batsmen in the top order (Cook and Root), and NZ also have 2 (Kane and Rosco) then it is hard to see where all these England batsmen are that would walk into New Zealand's test team. For Guptill, read Alex Hales - picked ahead of that long list of batsmen who would walk into NZ's team. 
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On the opener front sure, England have a line of guys very similar to Guppy who have had a go, been a bit shit & been dropped (Robson, Hales, Compton, Carberry - who should not have been dropped), and the guys coming through are young. I'd argue those young guys (Haseem & Bell-Drumond in particular) will go on to be excellent. The difference in depth would maybe be we have one Guptil, England have 4. And none are as woeful as Guppy.
 
Add to that to walk into NZ ahead of Guppy, Nicols etc the England players don't need to be world class, they just need to be better than our options. England have a stack of guys who could average 30-35, which isn't good enough to hold a place for England, but historically very much is for us. Same way Greg Blewett or Matt Elliot couldn't get a run for Aussie but would have strolled into our team. They don't even have to be that good - and in most cases arent.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="611118" data-time="1472636622">
<div>
 
There not a lot between the sides? So England, who beat Aussie last time out, beat SA in SA, beat India in India, are on par with NZ who Aussie dicked 4-0 & SA just did by an innings & have we EVER won in India? That's on par?
 
 
 
 
Indeed, almost like he has got better... as his 258 v SA would tend to indicate.
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Yes - England are the third equal ranked test side and, now that we've lost that game to SA we've slipped from 5th to 6th =.
 
On the other hand, we're ranked 2nd in Odis and 1st in T20, while England are 5th in both of those - so across the three forms, I'd say fairly even.
 
On Stokes - he couldn't get out of the Under-13s in Christchurch, let alone make the full provincial side! He must surely have improved - I can't believe England would pick him otherwise? :)

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="611118" data-time="1472636622">
<div>
Ok, lets go. Mark Craig ended up playing for Gloucs seconds. Wagner I flagged as probably able to do well in England given his bowling style, as for the "Whole lot"? Which ones? Guys like Munro & Neesham can get gigs as T20 bash specialists - Chris Harris & Brad Hogg can still get gigs doing that.
 
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Glancing just through this season's first class cricket averages (I know there's also people like Milne just playing short form stuff and as you say, Craig and a few others) - NZers with county contracts...
 
Neil Broome, Craig Cachopa, James Franklin, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Hamish Marshall, Johan Myburgh, Kieran Noema-Barnett, Jeetan, Hamish Rutherford, Fat Jesse, Mitchell Santner, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner and Kane Williamson.

MN5

The way I see it England have Root and Cook who are world class and very good respectively. NZ have Williamson and Taylor....exactly the same. Other batsmen match up more or less the same in my opinion. Stokes has gone on to do the things I'd expect from Anderson, the Neesh or even Santner. Their seamers have maintained their standards better than Boult and Southee though although the way Wagner has taken up the reins is pretty inspirational.
 
I don't think your comparison of the Aussie guys is that apt in this situation Gollum, from the late 90s until recently Australia had class batsmen from 1 through to 7 ( Gilly ). Man for man England are comparable to the Black Caps.

Immenso Rapido

England definitely better at the moment and on the improve, NZ on the decline. (In tests. And the trend isn't great in other forms either) 
County cricket to Plunket not much difference. As Chris pointed out there are heaps of kiwis in county cricket these days and doing well. 
Gollum's use of examples of guys on t20 contracts or Craig getting some 2nd XI gigs as a part of a tour prep as a favour by Bracewell - is disingenuous.

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="611196" data-time="1472685452">
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England definitely better at the moment and on the improve, NZ on the decline. 
County cricket to Plunket not much difference. As Chris pointed out there are heaps of kiwis in county cricket these days and doing well. 
Gollum's use of examples of guys on t20 contracts or Craig getting some 2nd XI gigs as a part of a tour prep as a favour by Bracewell - is disingenuous.
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on the Fern? get out. really?
 
 
England seem to be on the rise in their ODI stuff after the disaster of the World Cup, some good results coming through. See their score the other night?

mariner4life

After being humbled in the tests, and their skipper heading home because he was "tired" Aus are romping the ODI series. Finch with a 19-ball 55, and again, George Bailey getting runs, currently averaging 75 for the series. His ODI average is now a very healthy 42.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="611196" data-time="1472685452">
<div>
England definitely better at the moment and on the improve, NZ on the decline. (In tests. And the trend isn't great in other forms either).
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I'm not too despondent.
 
The big step backwards is the retirement of McCullum - so we need to build up Nicholls or another to replace him at No. 5. Brendon's retirement has been exacerbated by the long term injuries to Anderson and Neesham, who ordinarily would bat at 6 and provide the 4th seamer - which allows BJ to bat at 7 and Santner at 8.
 
Most promising thing about the South Africa "series" was seeing Boult bowling balls on the fringe of 140kmh. Last year against the Aussies he was struggling to get above 130. Now, I know that speed guns around the world vary significantly, but the Aussie ones are usually about the most generous.
 
England are definitely on the improve - but, what last year's CWC debacle shows is that they have to get their selection spot on to compete at international level. They can't just whistle up a bunch of guys who have done well in county cricket in the same way we can't solve our problems by just picking Colin Munro.

mariner4life

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="611209" data-time="1472688264">
I'm not too despondent. 
The big step backwards is the retirement of McCullum - so we need to build up Nicholls or another to replace him at No. 5. Brendon's retirement has been exacerbated by the long term injuries to Anderson and Neesham, who ordinarily would bat at 6 and provide the 4th seamer - which allows BJ to bat at 7 and Santner at 8. 
Most promising thing about the South Africa "series" was seeing Boult bowling balls on the fringe of 140kmh. Last year against the Aussies he was struggling to get above 130. Now, I know that speed guns around the world vary significantly, but the Aussie ones are usually about the most generous. 
England are definitely on the improve - but, what last year's CWC debacle shows is that they have to get their selection spot on to compete at international level. They can't just whistle up a bunch of guys who have done well in county cricket in the same way we can't solve our problems by just picking Colin Munro.</blockquote>
 
That's good to hear. 
I didn't actually watch any of this series (I like my off-seasons). 
I was going to say the biggest factor in our decline is Southee and Boult being shit for about 18 months now. We'd already started to decline in Baz's last year. But encouraging if Boult can get 'it' back. 
I'm expecting us to decline a bit anyway off a historic high, so that's no tragedy. Happened about 2 years earlier and more rapidly than I would have hoped/expected.

No Quarter

Boult was very good and could have taken a lot more wickets with a bit more luck. Southee though was still bowling a lot of shit with the odd good ball thrown in. He started his career like that, then had a patch of consistent bowling under Bond, then went back to his old ways pretty much as soon as Bond left. Bloody frustrating as for a while there he was genuinely world class.
 
It's a real shame Milne has had so many injury problems, he would add a sting to our test attack that is sorely missing at the moment.

SammyC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="611225" data-time="1472692948">
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Boult was very good and could have taken a lot more wickets with a bit more luck. Southee though was still bowling a lot of shit with the odd good ball thrown in. He started his career like that, then had a patch of consistent bowling under Bond, then went back to his old ways pretty much as soon as Bond left. Bloody frustrating as for a while there he was genuinely world class.
 
It's a real shame Milne has had so many injury problems, he would add a sting to our test attack that is sorely missing at the moment.
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Boult bowled really well, lots of swing and pace was pretty comparable to Dale Steyn.
 
I think he'd get a lot more wickets if he didn't have the inconsistency of Southee at the other end.
 
 
Bracewell offers nothing, get rid of him and make Wagner the 3rd seamer from now on.

The Silver Fern

RSA vs NZ, 1st Test, Durban