Highlanders 2024
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2024:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2024:
Rhys Patchell:
Looed great in the first couple of games. Seems teams are reading him more easily now, especially his flat balls at the line.
Loosie mix:
Withy, Harmon and small no8s just isn't working. Looks like we need a big boy back at six. Withy is one of our best players, just doesn't suit the make up. I'd like to see us show some faith in Will Stodart as well.
These issues are linked IMO. Before we played the Brumbies, the ODT was raving about how we had the most turnovers, but teams have now cottoned on to the fact we don't commit numbers to the breakdown, and they are butchering us there. Our loosies also aren't getting us go forward, so Fakatava and by extension Patchell are working on slow, messy, flat-footed ball.
Have to shake up the loose trio... Haig has to start at 6, and Renton should be back for the Reds/Rebels. I'd be inclined to give Broughton another crack in the meantime, because we need to give him a proper chance to get a proper read. Stodart's time will come, but he is probably still a year fresh, and after Wingham's butchering the coaches might be reticent.
I guess around someone like Stodart. We don't know unless we try them. Six months ago, we would have said Cam Millar is clearly our number two first five. Faleafaga got a chance and proved he is the back up. Some of the guys have managed to prove themselves, it takes an opportunity to be able to make that decision in a game scenario. We can't simply say that because player A had a poor debut performance, we can't risk player B. We go back to Renton, and chuck Stodart on the bench. He can't do any worse than the other lads. It is a risk/reward game. We are a team who has to give it a go.
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2024:
@frugby said in Highlanders 2024:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2024:
Rhys Patchell:
Looed great in the first couple of games. Seems teams are reading him more easily now, especially his flat balls at the line.
Loosie mix:
Withy, Harmon and small no8s just isn't working. Looks like we need a big boy back at six. Withy is one of our best players, just doesn't suit the make up. I'd like to see us show some faith in Will Stodart as well.
These issues are linked IMO. Before we played the Brumbies, the ODT was raving about how we had the most turnovers, but teams have now cottoned on to the fact we don't commit numbers to the breakdown, and they are butchering us there. Our loosies also aren't getting us go forward, so Fakatava and by extension Patchell are working on slow, messy, flat-footed ball.
Have to shake up the loose trio... Haig has to start at 6, and Renton should be back for the Reds/Rebels. I'd be inclined to give Broughton another crack in the meantime, because we need to give him a proper chance to get a proper read. Stodart's time will come, but he is probably still a year fresh, and after Wingham's butchering the coaches might be reticent.
I guess around someone like Stodart. We don't know unless we try them. Six months ago, we would have said Cam Millar is clearly our number two first five. Faleafaga got a chance and proved he is the back up. Some of the guys have managed to prove themselves, it takes an opportunity to be able to make that decision in a game scenario. We can't simply say that because player A had a poor debut performance, we can't risk player B. We go back to Renton, and chuck Stodart on the bench. He can't do any worse than the other lads. It is a risk/reward game. We are a team who has to give it a go.
I guess with Stodart, my other point is that there are other guys (Haig and Broughton) who should get a go first.
Stodart's time will come.
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Next three weeks are huge for our season. Can't help but feel like if we want to be a serious side we need to go 3/3.
Obviously Rebels and particularly the Reds won't be easy, but at some point we need to stop making excuses... I'd accept 2/3, but if we are actually serious we'll go 3/3.
Follow that up by beating Moana in Tonga, and all of a sudden our record would be back to 6-4 heading into the Crusaders game, which obviously a long way away, but at this point regardless it is a must win, because our derby record is embarrassing.
Ball is in the coaches court... fix-up the loose forward trio and back Faleafaga... if we still lose because of weak depth in the tight five/a weak midfield without Tele'a, then I'll suck it up, but there has to be a response to that Canes performance IMO.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2024:
@frugby you're not wrong...i just dont have the faith it will happen
I think we scrape 1/2 in Australia, then smoke the Force... we should smoke Moana, because they are also rubbish, but not guaranteed.
Outside of the absolute abomination against the Canes, it has been more good than bad (even if at times frustrating)... we can certainly take 6th spot, which should have been the rough goal at the start of the year.
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Is it too soon to look ahead to next season?
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At this point, how more excuses are there for Dermody. I had high hopes for him, but with a squad that is arguably better than last year (certainly one with more attacking weapons) we're tracking to finish even worse.
We are by no means the best in the comp, but we just aren't this bad. We're going backwards and not forwards, we aren't learning. Tele'a will come back in next week, and I guess that might improve things slightly, but that just goes to the point that it is moments of brilliance from the players digging us out, not the other way around.
The Highlanders nearly won that trans-tasman tournament with a backline of Smith, Hunt, Nareki, Gregory, Collins, Tomkinson and J Ioane. The forward pack was hardly any better, if not worse. The bench was a 6-2 split including the likes of Teariki Ben-Nicholas and Kayne Hammington. Funnily enough Dermody was the coach, though clearly Brown was the overarching figure and had only dipped off.
T Brown might have been a reluctant head coach - I think that is clear, but in terms of getting the squad to play to their level of ability, he is the only one to have managed it since Jamie.
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Sacking the coach(es) is an easy reactionary approach. Am major issue we are facing is that the squad, at the moment is either very young or doesn't have high ceilings player wise. Often the top player in a position may be settled. Then, there won't be a lot between say player ranked 2 - 5 in that position. People with their glasses half full would say this is good competition. In reality, it says you can move the deck chairs around, but nothing eill change. Look at lock, this week we had Parkinson, Haig and Plummer. Playing club rugby (coming back from injury) was Dunshea, Tucker as well as Max Hicks. You could swap those six players around and it is likely no one would notice. At hooker, most would say there is stuff all between the three options. Behind Tele'a, we went for an average winger, due to a lack of confidence in the signed centres. The list goes on. We have players who would fill roles in other squads, but not be relied upon like we have to. There won't be a quick cure with this team, especially as it is focused on looking in before out with players. We talk about the Joseph era. He is there. Some of the tactics were pretty average last night, especially allowing a speedster like the young winger to have space and our covering defender not following the play. Some of the younger lads just don't appear battle hardened. They haven't played enough at the level below, let alone dominated there. So, hard to expext them to be world beaters at this level. Then there are guys who shoupd be strong, that just aren't clicking. Guys like Gilbert, Parkinson, Withy - who should be leading the way, and just look like they are trying too much. On the plus side the Highlanders fan engagement has come on leaps and bounds. I just don't know how much rope and goodwill the fans will give a team that is getting pumped, and making basic errors.
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2024:
Sacking the coach(es) is an easy reactionary approach. Am major issue we are facing is that the squad, at the moment is either very young or doesn't have high ceilings player wise. Often the top player in a position may be settled. Then, there won't be a lot between say player ranked 2 - 5 in that position.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. However I pose the question, are the coaches getting the best out of the players?
I think it is hard to say anything other than no... they've gone from having a dominant pack last year to looking pathetic this year, and other than Frizell (who was actually quite poor at times, injured half the time and mostly played at lock anyway) we haven't really lost anyone who should have made a material change to that.
We've got better backs, so are scoring more tries, but the gameplan which seemed to be progressing nicely in the first few weeks has been found out and is now not working at all.
At some stage I think you do have to ask a question about the coaching. As I say, we aren't world beaters, but are we this bad?
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2024:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2024:
Sacking the coach(es) is an easy reactionary approach. Am major issue we are facing is that the squad, at the moment is either very young or doesn't have high ceilings player wise. Often the top player in a position may be settled. Then, there won't be a lot between say player ranked 2 - 5 in that position.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. However I pose the question, are the coaches getting the best out of the players?
I think it is hard to say anything other than no... they've gone from having a dominant pack last year to looking pathetic this year, and other than Frizell (who was actually quite poor at times, injured half the time and mostly played at lock anyway) we haven't really lost anyone who should have made a material change to that.
We've got better backs, so are scoring more tries, but the gameplan which seemed to be progressing nicely in the first few weeks has been found out and is now not working at all.
At some stage I think you do have to ask a question about the coaching. As I say, we aren't world beaters, but are we this bad?
This needs to be balanced off with, what is Joseph and Dermody's two to five year plan. If that doesn't reflect the goals of the franchise then they need to go through a review. The next question is if we go to market and look for a head coach/forwards coach then who is available, what are their ambitions and realistically are they a better option or are they change for changes sake. We need to remember Kenny Lynn came across from France with big wraps on him. The backline looked good for the first few weeks and then struggled. As mentioned sacking a coach is an easy solution to a wider organisational problem that is likely to cause more issues than it solves. If not thought through properly. If we are running a development first policy. Are the players we have coming through good enough to compete with their counterparts around Australasia. Or are we simply saying we are a development club and promoting players who would never make it at other franchises. Setting them up to fail. Aiming towards 2027 (as a nominal year) we need to build a team around de Groot, Holland, Haig, Stoddart, Fakatava, Faleafaga and JRK. Which means there are several positions we need to work out who will be our players for. We also need to ensure we have varied levels of depth and players who believe they belong at this level.
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2024:
At this point, how more excuses are there for Dermody. I had high hopes for him, but with a squad that is arguably better than last year (certainly one with more attacking weapons) we're tracking to finish even worse.
We are by no means the best in the comp, but we just aren't this bad. We're going backwards and not forwards, we aren't learning. Tele'a will come back in next week, and I guess that might improve things slightly, but that just goes to the point that it is moments of brilliance from the players digging us out, not the other way around.
The Highlanders nearly won that trans-tasman tournament with a backline of Smith, Hunt, Nareki, Gregory, Collins, Tomkinson and J Ioane. The forward pack was hardly any better, if not worse. The bench was a 6-2 split including the likes of Teariki Ben-Nicholas and Kayne Hammington. Funnily enough Dermody was the coach, though clearly Brown was the overarching figure and had only dipped off.
T Brown might have been a reluctant head coach - I think that is clear, but in terms of getting the squad to play to their level of ability, he is the only one to have managed it since Jamie.
Tony Brown had a much weaker squad and also a far more modest coaching staff, it was essentially just him, Dermody and Christie on defence. Dermody has a support staff of around 6-7 if you include Jamie Joseph, Ben Smith and Nasi Manu - compared to Tony Brown having a grand total of 3 assistants lol.
Brown increasingly looks like a miracle worker by the day. Had them at least competitive at most of times and was upsetting teams like the Blues and Crusaders with some of the most limited backlines I have seen of a NZ side at Super Rugby level.
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2024:
At this point, how more excuses are there for Dermody. I had high hopes for him, but with a squad that is arguably better than last year (certainly one with more attacking weapons) we're tracking to finish even worse.
We are by no means the best in the comp, but we just aren't this bad. We're going backwards and not forwards, we aren't learning. Tele'a will come back in next week, and I guess that might improve things slightly, but that just goes to the point that it is moments of brilliance from the players digging us out, not the other way around.
The Highlanders nearly won that trans-tasman tournament with a backline of Smith, Hunt, Nareki, Gregory, Collins, Tomkinson and J Ioane. The forward pack was hardly any better, if not worse. The bench was a 6-2 split including the likes of Teariki Ben-Nicholas and Kayne Hammington. Funnily enough Dermody was the coach, though clearly Brown was the overarching figure and had only dipped off.
T Brown might have been a reluctant head coach - I think that is clear, but in terms of getting the squad to play to their level of ability, he is the only one to have managed it since Jamie.
i think its clear that dermody is suffering form the same thing Brown ultimately did although to an even greater degree, there is a big difference between a head coach and an assistant.....at least brown acknowledged that and had to be convinced to take the big job
for a hard man forward like Dermody to allowed the allow the soft play i saw on the weekend....shows hes running out of ideas
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so, seeing us play live made somethings more obvious, JRK is not gelling with the rest of the back line very well, both on defence and offence.
you could see he hasnt got to the point where he trusts others on defence, often leaves his man to go after someone elses and got caught out a couple of times
and on attack he looked good in his own right but didn't connect with others well, he's basically just looking to break down the middle on his own, he's not looking for or too create space for this wings (like kellaway did)
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2024:
so, seeing us play live made somethings more obvious, JRK is not gelling with the rest of the back line very well, both on defence and offence.
you could see he hasnt got to the point where he trusts others on defence, often leaves his man to go after someone elses and got caught out a couple of times
and on attack he looked good in his own right but didn't connect with others well, he's basically just looking to break down the middle on his own, he's not looking for or too create space for this wings (like kellaway did)
JRK is just about #1 on list of things not a problem. Most fullbacks probe from the back looking for gaps in the defensive line, and he has been doing this well.
Our defensive issues are functions of the system, the same one that got exposed last year when we had poor centres, and lone behold without Tele'a we have shipped 94 points in two games. I don't even think Tele'a is necessarily that good, but I think it is funny how much we miss him. It comes from the fact our centre incorrectly defends the space, which forces the fullback and/or the winger to crab in.
A combination of a coaching and personnel issue... I've seen the Highlanders look rock solid with Michael Collins and Scott Gregory in the midfield though, so it really makes you wonder about the defensive systems.
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not suggesting he's top of the list of this that need fixing by any means but from where we were behind the posts it was obvious there are things he could be doing differently that might help
charging up the middle looking for your retreating forwards too have made an opening is pretty route one and the rebels saw it coming (they were asking for him to do it by kicking down the middle rather than too the wing), we could see Nareki and Tawatawanawai holding wide that he could have worked too connect with better
same with getting beaten on the outside when he came infield too far, his connection with our wings could do with some improvement
none of that take away form bigger problems with defence like very few dominant tackles
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@Kiwiwomble said in Highlanders 2024:
charging up the middle looking for your retreating forwards too have made an opening is pretty route one and the rebels saw it coming (they were asking for him to do it by kicking down the middle rather than too the wing), we could see Nareki and Tawatawanawai holding wide that he could have worked too connect with better
Interesting point regarding teams kicking up the middle. I wonder if this is because we just don't commit numbers to the breakdown and our loose forwards don't carry, so teams are quite happy to look to isolate us there.
The other argument would be, is that we don't kick the ball very well, so teams are quite happy to put us in positions where they know we'll kick it back?
I just think as a general rule, I look at the majority of our issues and it feels like we aren't getting it right tactically. The argument (not suggesting you are making it) that if X player was better we'd be better only washes so far. 15(?) new players were brought in, so regardless of ability I feel like they should relate to a gameplan? If not, then at the very least the gameplan should be tailored to who we have?
I'm not suggesting sacking the coach(es) is necessarily the option, particularly in the case of Dermody who has a year to run, but it is hard to imagine that Jamie Joseph is going to sit around and accept mediocrity - further to that, it is hard to imagine he wouldn't want the job either which is why everything feels so much more high stakes. There are many reasons why things might be going wrong. It could be bad attack leads into bad defence or vice-versa.
It could be that legitimately both are just bad, or could be that both are good in their own right, but achieve competing things and aren't being linked together by the head coach.
It could even be, that the gameplan is actually all fine and the players are not executing what they want them to do... then in which case the focus goes on the forwards coach (Donnelly) and the backs coach (Smith).
Were Joseph and Brown just miracle workers?
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@frugby said in Highlanders 2024:
I just think as a general rule, I look at the majority of our issues and it feels like we aren't getting it right tactically. The argument (not suggesting you are making it) that if X player was better we'd be better only washes so far. 15(?) new players were brought in, so regardless of ability I feel like they should relate to a gameplan? If not, then at the very least the gameplan should be tailored to who we have?
i was really just pointing out something we saw in the ground that i hadnt noticed on TV that i think would be an improvement (we had talked before about Nareki having a quiet season)
I think it was more obvious for us as we couldn't help comparing to what we do at the club (went with guys from the club) and its the opposite, the highlanders were always trying to get midfield on the counter...we're always looking to find an edge and reset our shape
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@Kiwiwomble maybe Withy at 13 then.
