Aussie Pro Rugby
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@mariner4life
Cheers for posting this.
In the big picture this is bad, it's exposed all parts of Australian rugby, management, structure, player depth.
I'm worried they will close shop and go internal and ditch Super Rugby.
Can they bounce back like England did in 4 years?NZR have there own issues which they need to confront over the next few months, if we both dont get sorted, coupled with this could lead to a collapse in SH rugby.
I worry that we are going to let overseas players be available for selection, while I'd love the top players available for the ABs, I also want a strong domestic comp to go watch each week. -
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@MiketheSnow said in Aussie Rugby:
@Chris said in Aussie Rugby:
Where does Australia go from here,This is going to hurt the game massively in Australia.
We need them to be better, really we are playing a tier 2 nation with a top team ranked 10th now as our main playing partner,With weak SR teams and a eroding player base.This could bring us down even more.
We need to get the Argies back in and grow the Japanese relationship quick smart.
Is Fiji our main rival in the pacific out side of SA .-
Get over yourselves
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Get over yourselves
I kind of understand what Mike is saying here.
Look Wallabies lost to a much better team yesterday, and so some of us are worrying about how it effects us as kiwi rugby men. It's not really fair is it.
Other thing I will say, and mainly to @NTA and Aus mates, see although it a disappointing result, it was that , a disappointing result, the sun still came up this morning, and so it's not too bad. I know and have said Aus rugby has problems, but they aren't just because a good Welsh team deservedy beat them yesterday, the problems are no worse today than they were last month or day before yesterday. -
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@Dan54 said in Aussie Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in Aussie Rugby:
@Chris said in Aussie Rugby:
Where does Australia go from here,This is going to hurt the game massively in Australia.
We need them to be better, really we are playing a tier 2 nation with a top team ranked 10th now as our main playing partner,With weak SR teams and a eroding player base.This could bring us down even more.
We need to get the Argies back in and grow the Japanese relationship quick smart.
Is Fiji our main rival in the pacific out side of SA .-
Get over yourselves
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Get over yourselves
I kind of understand what Mike is saying here.
Look Wallabies lost to a much better team yesterday, and so some of us are worrying about how it effects us as kiwi rugby men. It's not really fair is it.
Other thing I will say, and mainly to @NTA and Aus mates, see although it a disappointing result, it was that , a disappointing result, the sun still came up this morning, and so it's not too bad. I know and have said Aus rugby has problems, but they aren't just because a good Welsh team deservedy beat them yesterday, the problems are no worse today than they were last month or day before yesterday.Quite right. Getting to the semi-finals of this World Cup would have been the equivalent of putting a sticking plaster over a gunshot wound.
There are some systematic issues in Australian Rugby that need to be working on, that have finally caught up with the Wallabies. I find the revisionism that if they had Rennie, Foley, Cooper, Hooper etc. all would have been well. Would they have beaten Fiji? Probably, but they probably still would have crashed out in the quarters to England, which only really feels better.
I feel Jones was looking longer-term, and decided that this group of players if all went right could have done something really special. The players not picked IMO, would not have had a material tournament to make them win it. They just don't have the overall squad of players at the moment. Those coming through do actually look promising, and could achieve something really special over the next four years, but to do that, some good decisions are going to be made in the next couple of months.
The fact that Jones is looking to Japan, to me says a lot about those above him. Why is he looking to jump ship, after effectively getting everything he could ever want? Hamish McLennan is clearly an absolute asshole, and a nuisance to work with. On a power trip. Is Jones perfect? No. But I still firmly believe, he is the man to turn things around for Australia, if they stick with him - on the proviso he wants to stay. I get the feeling though, that one of those two has to go. I'd stick with Jones, he is an Australian rugby legend, who you know will work his ass off to turn things around. He might be a bit of a cock in the media, but the journalists always fail to consider why he does it. He's taking the spotlight away from the young squad, it is the oldest trick in the book. As opposed to seeing articles slating the performances of Donaldson, Gordon, etc. you were reading about Eddie.
It isn't Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, it is distraction, distraction, distraction. I have immense respect for the man. If they appoint a decent C.E.O, and some sensible people around him/her to restructure their domestic game, be that chopping a Super side or two, reforming an NRC style comp, and let Eddie do his thing, I seriously think they could win that World Cup.
The alternative of sticking with McLennan, who is a money hungry bastard on a power trip, would take them further away from where they need to get to IMO. Who'd end up being the next coach? Brad Thorn? Is that really better than Eddie Jones?
It is entirely possible Jones has done his dash, but until the end, he did pretty well with England, and even then, they didn't improve after he left, only stepping it up at the World Cup, which history would suggest quite possibly would have happened with Eddie. With the Wallabies, he joined a sinking ship. Rennie was doing some things right, but if he did more right, they wouldn't have chopped him. They lost to Italy for heavens sake. Eddie took some risks to refloat it, but unfortunately for him, the ship sunk further.
An interesting few months ahead, which could be fatal for Australian Rugby, which would be bad news for NZR, or on the flipside, could be the start of a really special time for the Wallabies. I bloody hope it is the latter, because though we hate losing, wouldn't it be good if the Bledisloe Cup was actually a contest.
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@Dan54 said in Aussie Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in Aussie Rugby:
@Chris said in Aussie Rugby:
Where does Australia go from here,This is going to hurt the game massively in Australia.
We need them to be better, really we are playing a tier 2 nation with a top team ranked 10th now as our main playing partner,With weak SR teams and a eroding player base.This could bring us down even more.
We need to get the Argies back in and grow the Japanese relationship quick smart.
Is Fiji our main rival in the pacific out side of SA .-
Get over yourselves
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Get over yourselves
I kind of understand what Mike is saying here.
Look Wallabies lost to a much better team yesterday, and so some of us are worrying about how it effects us as kiwi rugby men. It's not really fair is it.
Other thing I will say, and mainly to @NTA and Aus mates, see although it a disappointing result, it was that , a disappointing result, the sun still came up this morning, and so it's not too bad. I know and have said Aus rugby has problems, but they aren't just because a good Welsh team deservedy beat them yesterday, the problems are no worse today than they were last month or day before yesterday.....isn't that kind of the point....they were looking pretty bad a month ago too...and now Wales (who some in the NH are saying are a basket case and currently only better than Italy in the 6N)...scored 40 points and kept them tryless....so it might be even worse than we thought
@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
how do they get tens of thousands of fans buying memberships?
tribalism.
Long held attachments to teams. Families supporting, with kids and grandkids. Teams for life.
Hint: thye don't call them franchises. They don't transfer unions to other franchises. They keep branding and names the same forever. They care about their fans. Hell - they usually have a club you can physically turn up to!
yeah, was kind of a rhetorical question as its pretty clear some of the big differences...just the rugby administrators seem to not see it or not care
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@game_film said in Aussie Rugby:
After seeing the Brownlow result, at least the Wallabies didn’t have the worst Aussie performance this week
just like yesterday morning, the right team won!
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So the Wallabies were generally shit until the 80s and after more than 3 decades of growth and competitiveness they're just returning to the natural order. Nah that's nonsense. Union in Australia used to be an amateur snobs game played in the private schools. NZers would be incredulous about how women wore dressed up in their jewellery to watch a game at Ballymore. It isn't 1972 anymore. League had its back broken by Super League and Union was handed the opportunity of a lifetime. I remember Arthur Beetson lamenting about how kids were now turning to union in traditional League areas. But they fůcked it up. Through sheer hubris, arrogance and greed those same same types of private school gatekeepers who did their best to keep people away from the game in the past have done it again.
Blind then and blind now. Never changes.
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
@chimoaus said in Aussie Rugby:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble said in Aussie Rugby:
@voodoo NZ doesn't look much better to me, clubs going belly up, abysmal crowds in stands, i think some of us look at +60k people turning up to an AB's game and think all is fine....what we need to +20k every week for all teams in the super rugby
Why, when you can watch it from home and not get gouged for food and drinks at a ridiculous nonfamily friendly time?
I guess the question is how do the AFL and NRL still get plenty of numbers turning up.
Atmosphere that doesn't rely on some shit DJ ?
Well, the worst shit DJ I have ever experienced in my life was at the Warriors v Penrith prelim final, so it appears the NRL gets the numbers in spite of the shit DJs.
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Does anyone have access to the paywalled Financial Review article about Kim Jong McLellan? I read it via a mate, but was thinking it might be a perfect representation of Oz rugby that it has a substantive article in the AFR. (They may discuss the other Oz sports frequently though, I don't know as I don't normally read it).
Anyway, I didn't know he was also Chair of a News Limited owned company. Seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest that the Chair of an organisation with a broadcast deal with Stan/9 is also Chair of a company owned by their competitor.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby:
So the Wallabies were generally shit until the 80s and after more than 3 decades of growth and competitiveness they're just returning to the natural order. Nah that's nonsense.
The natural order of letting opportunities slip because everything in your back yard is apples. That's Australian Rugby.
Hoiles is on social media and on Stan saying club rugby is pumping. He's fucking deluded and/or just looking at "club rugby" = "Randwick".
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@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby:
Anyway, I didn't know he was also Chair of a News Limited owned company. Seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest that the Chair of an organisation with a broadcast deal with Stan/9 is also Chair of a company owned by their competitor.
McLennan comes from an advertising background and (IMO my lawyers have advised me to say) has clearly brought that twaddle and misrepresentation to the administration of rugby. That somehow additional public noise is beneficial, is always a net positive rather than realising in the Australian sporting market, winning is the only thing that counts. The net effect of which will ensure that sponsors will go to something else, television advertising will diminish. I mean, who in their right mind would pay anything for this current product that practically everyman and his dog is walking away from? It's at the point that rugby people I know in this country are overwhelmingly not even discussing the current clusterfuck. That's how bad it is; they aren't invested enough now to be publicly angry.
So to the professionalism of the people that got rid of Rennie. That paid millions for another unproven league back. That are still paying Rennie because they can't afford to get rid of him. How are they to get rid of Eddie? What case can they make for private equity funding since they were jerking themselves off they could get more than NZR got from Silver Lake? A game surviving on loans.
This collection of incompetence was banking on securing tens of millions from a Lions tour that now looks like a whitewash. Pending a stunning revival in world rankings, how many Wallaby fans will invest sizeable sums to attend that? Does anyone have confidence the Wallabies can capture the imaginations of the Australian public for 2027 like the Matildas did?
For all the talk of governance improvements, who at the lower levels would have any faith that these imbeciles can fix anything when their track record is the above?
And this should genuinely worry NZR, so the governance review can't have come at a better time. Australian rugby is a mendicant, so NZR need to determine whether to invest in it, or try to minimise the fallout.
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I always found the deflection of reponsibilty was a thing that infuriated me when I was really involved in rugby in Australia, and still happens, the it's not our fault, NRL, AFL are stronger games. NZR should be giving us more help ,it's Qld's, Tahs/North Sydney etc etc running the game, or everyones against us. While every thing has a smidgen in it, they get used as an excuse to bloody much .
One great example I always think , I was a member of Reds for a few years, and remember clearly in 2006 Reds were not very good at all, and almost every game I attended thepeople/supporters around me would be saying out loud , this is crap, I not watching these fellas anymore (and anyone who sat just to left of players tunnel right at front cwould be able to attest to fact.
Anyway begiining of next season I was at a luncheon at Ballymore with mates (Grant Fox was speaker) and he was asked what he thought of the idea of ABs getting a few games off that season (07 WC year) the man from Reds (a very good passionate Reds man) stood and said how upset he was as it was so hard to get crowds to rugby etc and NZR were letting them down.
I stood up in questions and asked why he felt an AB or 2 was hurting the crowds and I quoted what I was hearing at Suncorp every week about the Reds being useless etc. He didn't answer and a few of the lunch crowd kind of gave me shit for saying it, (Foxy actually asked them to shush up etc), I told him not to bother, because any of them who were actual rugby supporters knew what I was saying was true. Actuall Foxy came and had a beer with me and mates (all Reds long time Reds supporters) upstairs and sia I had hit nail on head (perhaps he would of put it a little differently/diplomatically) and was a little surprised thatReds board didn't see what was in front of them. But as I said I knew before then, but that to me was a massive statement what one of huge problems was and still is Australian rugby.
It's not us, it's everyone else's fault! -
@Dan54 i think i can see a variation on what your saying in lots of facets, stuff just gets put in the "too hard basket", we're never going to get big crowds or large memberships, never going to attract big sponsors....so why bother....let just accept things for what they currently are
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@Kiwiwomble When I was first in Aus and on club committee (and coaching etc) I suggested we try and do a some kind of promotion at local schools even put up signs etc around them and in shopping centres, and got told, naa none takes notice because League is the big sport around Qld (Lions had just come on AFL scene). I was somewhat gobsmacked! We did get that changed a bit after a few years, where the attitude was lay down and get walked over.
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@Dan54 said in Aussie Rugby:
@Kiwiwomble When I was first in Aus and on club committee (and coaching etc) I suggested we try and do a some kind of promotion at local schools even put up signs etc around them and in shopping centres, and got told, naa none takes notice because League is the big sport around Qld (Lions had just come on AFL scene). I was somewhat gobsmacked! We did get that changed a bit after a few years, where the attitude was lay down and get walked over.
AFL is a great example. It barely had a footprint in Qld and NSW. It was a joke. Aerial ping pong and gay shorts. Now look at it.
I recall years ago signing my son up to a Reds afterschool programme. The time? 3pm, i.e the exact time school finishes. Even being close by you're lucky to get there in 15min. The whole thing was also a complete joke. Couple of months later AFL comes along. Hands out a heap of free shit and signs up a tonne of kids. And this is a game that didn't even exist here not that long ago.
It's still amateur hour here despite them getting paid now.
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I'm not qualified to talk about the Australian situation but I do think the negativity around the prospects for the NZ gme are OTT.
We've been here before, most notably after the 81 Bok tour but also to a lesser extent from 98-04. The shy didn't actually fall on our heads then and I don't think it is going to now either.
I don't see any real drop off in support for ruby. In the main centres club rugby was always pretty niche. A lot of rural clubs are struggling but where they remain, they still seem to be a focal point for their communities.
How we support rugby has changed. People don't go to games any more. They're too expensive, on at the wrong time and you can easily watch them on line or TV. Still see a lot of Super Rugby jerseys being worn though.
Other sports have definitely made inroads. League basketball and soccer particularly. All do have a more tribal element and have done their marketing much better. But in the main they grabbed their support through TV. Not many Kiwi's in the stands at a Lakers game but still see their (hideous) team colours all around Auckland.
there's a shitload more ways to entertain yourself than even a decade ago. Rugby really had a captive audience for generations and hasn't vcoped well withy the challenges, but I would be worried if I didn't see kids in AB jerseys etc and that's not the case. We just need to have some success. We are definitely more discriminatory, less dedicated in bad times, but we only have to look back 12 months to the WRWC to see how the country wants to follow a successful team.
Rugby is still the #1 sport in NZ and will remain so for the foreseeable. It hasn't got the field to itself any more but it's not dying.
I do accept the issues around the Super rugby comp. I've said before I don't think it is preparing our athletes for test rugby. It does need a fresh think but changing it all the time is what has helped undermine it. Particularly in Oz. The success of the Crusaders has been bad for the comp too. People lose interest if they think the results are predetermined. However, it's not that long ago that we were proclaiming how the NH got it wrong concentrating on club rugby and how NZ with central contracts and the franchise model was the way to go.
Certainly Wales and Ireland adopted some of that. The truth is somewhere in the middle I think.
NZ is just collectively losing its shit because we are not lording it over everyone else. Oz similarly but with less reason to think they had a preordained right to dimne at the top table.
England have a club scene and its a shambles from what I observe. France, Sth Africa, Wales all had periods in the doldrums not all that long ago. Ireland's time in the sun will end.
We just need some perspective. Over-performing in the next 6 weeks would help too.
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108K views · 10K reactions | Did Dave Rennie’s time with the...
Did Dave Rennie’s time with the Wallabies cut short? 🤔 #Wallabies #GitsGenia #Rugby #AustraliaRugby.
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yeah, thik he was pretty hard done by....he seemed to have an actual long term game plan that was obviously going to take longer than this world cup cycle....and they dump him for eddie originally for the smash and grab....which i can...kind of understand, want to build some hype before the next world cup etc....but then he picks a young squad and starts talking about the future.....
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Some good points.
I think there's a risk of over-obesseing about Super Rugby's ability to prepare players for international rugby. I'm not saying it's not important, you do want and need it to be a really good step up (as well as an entertaining and healthy comp in its own right). But as the cliche goes, perfection is the enemy of good.
The club / province / regional systems in place in England, France, Ireland & Wales are far from perfect. Very very far in some cases, the Welsh regional system is an absolute basket case, the English league is a money pit, the workload in the French system would put a Soviet labour camp to shame. But somehow, the NH sometimes produce decent national teams.
Absolutely not suggesting that Aus / NZ should follow any of the NH models, just pointing out that the competition below national level is only one of many factors
