The Current State of Rugby
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@Dan54 said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kirwan I would guess an awful lot of us will recall the 'end of rugby ' in the 80s after the Bok tour to NZ and rebel tour to SA also. And yet here we are.
Yep. Was a huge uptick in youth soccer for a few years, then it drifted back.
And this not to say we shouldn't be improving the entertainment package, but I'd prefer they did that with competition structure than always tinkering with the laws.
Having a top 8 in such a small comp is stupid, for example.
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@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kirwan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial yes I'm not a fan of teams being penalised just for not being good enough, thats what the scoreboard is for.
It is incredibly frustrating to see teams scrum for penalties, and the ref allowing them to hold it in the back while waiting for the second shove to win the penalty.
Like mauls, refs need to be quicker to get teams moving the ball.
Mauls should be 1 stoppage, and IMO anything other than moving toward your intended goal line, is stopped, but yeah ref both teams, not just the defending team.
For scrums, that basically removes them as a contest for possession. You should be rewarded for a stronger scrum
but isn't the possession the reward, scrum is a contest for the ball with one team having a VERY minor advantage of knowing when the ball is coming in, we've already turned that into a big advantage by not making anyone put it in straight...but, its in and a dominant scrum has it...and can play...isn't that exactly what the reward is... teams turning a knock on into 3 point is madness
The major advantage with the feed on the loosehead side is that your hooker (or loosehead prop) packs closer to the feed than the opposition's, so with a competent strike he'll hook the ball without his opponent getting a chance.
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I think the consensus is to
Make it a 15 v 15 contest for as long as possible
Award adventure
Penalise negative play
To that end
Thoughts please
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Do the match officials suspect intentional foul play?
Intentional?
e.g. biting; butting; gouging; kicking; spitting; etcYes
Penalty against the offending team
Stop the match
Immediate reviewYes
RC
Team reduced to 14 players for the duration of the matchDo the match officials suspect unintentional foul play?
Unintentional?
e.g. Dangerous tackle, head contact, tackle beyond 90 degreesYes
Penalty against the offending team
YC
Substitute allowed to enter the field of play
Both teams at 15 playersReview of the incident by TMO during the 10 minute YC period
On review is the card upgraded to RC?
Yes
Offending player is off for the remainder of the match
Substitute remains on the field
Both teams at 15 playersYC offence
Offending player is allowed to rejoin the match after 10 minutes is up
Substitute leaves the field
Both teams at 15 playersIf a player is YC for a second time the offending player is off for the remainder of the match
Do the match officials suspect professional foul?
e.g. Pulling jersey of player not in possession of the ball; tackling without the ball; knock on preventing a scoring opportunity; collapsing scrum; infringement at lineout etc
Yes
Did it prevent a try scoring opportunity?
Yes
Penalty against offending teamYC
Substitute allowed to enter the field of play
Both teams at 15 playersOffending player is allowed to rejoin the match after 10 minutes is up
Substitute leaves field
Both teams at 15 playersDid it prevent a try scoring opportunity?
No
Award try
Offending player not censuredOn completion of conversion the match restarts with penalty against the offending team on the halfway line
A potential 10 point play or an opportunity to kick to touch to gain field position and possession
Continued infringements preventing try scoring opportunities will see the substitute bench being used
If all substitutes are on the field of play then continued infringements will see the offending team play with 14, 13, 12 etc players
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@Derpus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Kirwan I'd argue most of the recent law changes have been pretty good and have gone on to be adopted by the international rugby community.
The competition on the other hand is irredeemably fucked.
Nothing as simple as a sporting competition is irredeemably fucked.
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@MiketheSnow pretty much gets us to the way the game used to be played.
Needs to have consistency with suspensions as well.
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@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I think the consensus is to
Make it a 15 v 15 contest for as long as possible
Award adventure
Penalise negative play
To that end
Thoughts please
—————
Do the match officials suspect intentional foul play?
Intentional?
e.g. biting; butting; gouging; kicking; spitting; etcYes
Penalty against the offending team
Stop the match
Immediate reviewYes
RC
Team reduced to 14 players for the duration of the matchDo the match officials suspect unintentional foul play?
Unintentional?
e.g. Dangerous tackle, head contact, tackle beyond 90 degreesYes
Penalty against the offending team
YC
Substitute allowed to enter the field of play
Both teams at 15 playersReview of the incident by TMO during the 10 minute YC period
On review is the card upgraded to RC?
Yes
Offending player is off for the remainder of the match
Substitute remains on the field
Both teams at 15 playersYC offence
Offending player is allowed to rejoin the match after 10 minutes is up
Substitute leaves the field
Both teams at 15 playersIf a player is YC for a second time the offending player is off for the remainder of the match
Do the match officials suspect professional foul?
e.g. Pulling jersey of player not in possession of the ball; tackling without the ball; knock on preventing a scoring opportunity; collapsing scrum; infringement at lineout etc
Yes
Did it prevent a try scoring opportunity?
Yes
Penalty against offending teamYC
Substitute allowed to enter the field of play
Both teams at 15 playersOffending player is allowed to rejoin the match after 10 minutes is up
Substitute leaves field
Both teams at 15 playersDid it prevent a try scoring opportunity?
No
Award try
Offending player not censuredOn completion of conversion the match restarts with penalty against the offending team on the halfway line
A potential 10 point play or an opportunity to kick to touch to gain field position and possession
Continued infringements preventing try scoring opportunities will see the substitute bench being used
If all substitutes are on the field of play then continued infringements will see the offending team play with 14, 13, 12 etc players
re the "negative" play, if we're talking about high/late tackles and the like yes, definately....if we're talking scrum penalties or players getting deliberately pinned on the wrong side of a ruck...not for me
we seem to be moving more and more towards only the best teams and players being able to win, yes that should be the norm but only because theyre the best...they dont need the help of the rules, obviously lesser teams also getting penalised out of a game is part of what kill interest, we want the fans of those teams to always think they have a chance to pull off an upset
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@Kirwan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@taniwharugby said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial yes I'm not a fan of teams being penalised just for not being good enough, thats what the scoreboard is for.
It is incredibly frustrating to see teams scrum for penalties, and the ref allowing them to hold it in the back while waiting for the second shove to win the penalty.
Like mauls, refs need to be quicker to get teams moving the ball.
Mauls should be 1 stoppage, and IMO anything other than moving toward your intended goal line, is stopped, but yeah ref both teams, not just the defending team.
For scrums, that basically removes them as a contest for possession. You should be rewarded for a stronger scrum, or for wearing down another team that's perhaps gambled on a strong scrum but at the expense of the fitness to maintain it.
There aren't that many scrums in games anyway. If you really want to improve the game enforce the offside line at the ruck, or extend it to a clear one metre behind the last player in the ruck. Significantly more rucks in a game, and offside play effects more than a couple of scrum penalties.
Scrums are much less of an issue that mauls. That said, one thing that irks me about scrums is teams being penalised and having players carded simply because they've lost a scrum. For sure, penalise genuine infringements such as boring in, wheeling around, collapsing etc. but don't start penalising teams simply because they're losing a pushing contest. The advantage to the stronger scrum there should not be to gain a penalty (or an extra man), but rather to get more time and space for your backs because the other team is going backwards.
The scrum, to me, is just one example of how the incentives of penalties and cards have become a little skewed in the modern game. Rather than being a punishment for illegal or foul play, penalties and cards are now too much of a "reward" for the attacking team, so tactics and strategies are built around obtaining those rewards.
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@Kirwan said in The Current State of Rugby:
On a more general note, as I stated at the beginning of the searon after the early rounds, I'm really enjoying the rugby I'm seeing. Some really good games, Drua finding their feet in particular is a positive.
Speeding up the game is the key IMO, they need to really stick with that and we'll slowly tranistion out of large mass monsters lumbering around for 45mins then getting subbed.
Have to agree. Rugby has been decent with a few dud games on the whole.
Came to the conclusion that my life priorities have changed which is why I watch much less. I have zero affinity for local rugby here & my interest in Super Rugby is currently third behind Premier League & F1 from a TV perspective. With family life, golf & spending time with friends & family, there just simply isn't the time I once had & the highlights package is sufficient.
I know I'm not alone here and it's why Super Rugby as a package really needs to sell to the 20's. I mean, how many people who post here are in their 20's?
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question, does the half back get too much protection?
kind of occured to me watching the highlanders game over the weekend, rucks with as few as 4 people, 2 on the ground and a couple standing over it, defending team could easily reach the halfback who is just standing there looking at options but are obviously told they cant grab him
if we removed that rule, would it force more players into the ruck to protect him and possibly creating more space?
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@Kiwiwomble isn't the 'looser' ruling around the ball being out making teams more careful? Plus the established ruling that when the HB picks the ball up you can play them/their arm by reaching over?
Making the ruck a wrestle/push would attract more players but players on their feet at a tackle haven't been much of a thing for yonks.
I do laugh at the lawbook cartoon drawings explaining a ruck. It seems that WR actually think that a ruck is standing players pushing over a tackled player. Not a pile of bodies to be seen.
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Not sure where to put this, but don't know who else watched Breakdown last night, Really enjoyed it, and was most interested in hearing Mark Robinson, and was discussing the Japan deal going forward , and next year's tests.
Best thing to me was we got Fiji for one test and Poms for two here next year, and are trying to arrange ABs?Fiji test after that! Won't be a moneymaker for NZR as such, but the promo it will do in Fiji will be fantastic I think. Still a bit of work to to (not least FJR board sorting it's shit) but for state of rugby this is bloody brilliant! Also with the Japan thing going forward, again great for the game. Was also interested to hear him talk about the player numbers are going well, and real good in Heartland unions (of course grassroots is where it's at) , East Coast with about 60,000 have got 8 clubs with 8 men's teams and 6 women's teams. Also have read elsewhere that viewer numbers on tv are back to pre covid levels etc, so good to hear a bit of positive stuff. -
@Dan54 said in The Current State of Rugby:
Not sure where to put this, but don't know who else watched Breakdown last night, Really enjoyed it, and was most interested in hearing Mark Robinson, and was discussing the Japan deal going forward , and next year's tests.
Best thing to me was we got Fiji for one test and Poms for two here next year, and are trying to arrange ABs?Fiji test after that! Won't be a moneymaker for NZR as such, but the promo it will do in Fiji will be fantastic I think. Still a bit of work to to (not least FJR board sorting it's shit) but for state of rugby this is bloody brilliant! Also with the Japan thing going forward, again great for the game. Was also interested to hear him talk about the player numbers are going well, and real good in Heartland unions (of course grassroots is where it's at) , East Coast with about 60,000 have got 8 clubs with 8 men's teams and 6 women's teams. Also have read elsewhere that viewer numbers on tv are back to pre covid levels etc, so good to hear a bit of positive stuff.An article in the Herald by Gregor is going on how terrible the Japan deal is 'cos Fiji should get games there first. But, like the 'great for Fiji' point you've made that's sadly bollocks. These are out of windows tests, so they won't get the real stars from Europe. This will be ABs B vs Drua + Japanese Fijians. Great that there is a test there, but out-of-window tests are not that much use to the Pacific nations.
But nice to see positive stuff coming through, I think playing in Japan, and getting them into shape for RC would be great. But they've got to better than Italy is in 6N to be worth the extra travel
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@Machpants said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Dan54 said in The Current State of Rugby:
Not sure where to put this, but don't know who else watched Breakdown last night, Really enjoyed it, and was most interested in hearing Mark Robinson, and was discussing the Japan deal going forward , and next year's tests.
Best thing to me was we got Fiji for one test and Poms for two here next year, and are trying to arrange ABs?Fiji test after that! Won't be a moneymaker for NZR as such, but the promo it will do in Fiji will be fantastic I think. Still a bit of work to to (not least FJR board sorting it's shit) but for state of rugby this is bloody brilliant! Also with the Japan thing going forward, again great for the game. Was also interested to hear him talk about the player numbers are going well, and real good in Heartland unions (of course grassroots is where it's at) , East Coast with about 60,000 have got 8 clubs with 8 men's teams and 6 women's teams. Also have read elsewhere that viewer numbers on tv are back to pre covid levels etc, so good to hear a bit of positive stuff.An article in the Herald by Gregor is going on how terrible the Japan deal is 'cos Fiji should get games there first. But, like the 'great for Fiji' point you've made that's sadly bollocks. These are out of windows tests, so they won't get the real stars from Europe. This will be ABs B vs Drua + Japanese Fijians. Great that there is a test there, but out-of-window tests are not that much use to the Pacific nations.
But nice to see positive stuff coming through, I think playing in Japan, and getting them into shape for RC would be great. But they've got to better than Italy is in 6N to be worth the extra travel
Sorry Mach, I can't agree , so you think it's better to not play Fiji in Fiji because it outside the test window? This is unfortunately seems to be what some do, and maybe not on purpose but immediately rubbish anything going forward. The test window is only 3 weeks, so are you suggesting that NZR should scrap tests against Poms? But it being outside test window is one of things that Robinson said was a problem they were working through etc. I will bet you any amount of money you would like to bet that Fijian Rugby will be stoked to have a test held there!
Same as playing Japan, why do they have to be better than Italy for us to play them? Surely it's good the idea of working in with Japan rugby for both commercial opportunities for both unions and as he Robinson says, work on the whole Asian area?
Anyway I reckon it bloody great work by them, and perhaps we will disagree on the worth of expanding game etc. -
Playing a one-off vs Fiji in Fiji outside of the test window is fluff. PR for NZR and nice for Fiji but not real substance. As with Samoa, they'll come out with a huge loss because of the costs, unless it is paid for by NZR. It won't grow the game in Fiji, which doesn't need that. They need regular access to their stars and regular games. And that is the NH job, we tour up there, and they tour down here. Until that changes, and we get the world series thing, with relegation (sorry Italy, Scotland and Wales) most of this is moot.
I didn't say Japan had to be better than Italy, just more competitive than Italy is in the 6N. Cos Italy are poor, outside the occasional blip. And unlike in Europe/6N, it is bloody hard travel for a lot of the teams if you add Japan into the RC. They really have to be a good game-worthy addition for all the extra travel.As I said I think this a good thing, but the real reason it is happening is so NZR and Silverlake can get a bigger cash reward. I hope it expands the game, but I can't see it
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@Kiwiwomble said in The Current State of Rugby:
question, does the half back get too much protection?
kind of occured to me watching the highlanders game over the weekend, rucks with as few as 4 people, 2 on the ground and a couple standing over it, defending team could easily reach the halfback who is just standing there looking at options but are obviously told they cant grab him
if we removed that rule, would it force more players into the ruck to protect him and possibly creating more space?
A million percent agree.
Every facet of the game should be a fair contest, but we have plenty of elements of the game where one side is preferentially treated.
Defending a maul is nigh on impossible.
Caterpillering rucks with a pillar standing ahead of the scrum half while he box kicks to prevent a charge down. Should be offisde.
Not being allowed grab the scrum half. Rolling it back with his foot etc. It should be incumbent on the attacking team to throw the required numbers in to get him clean ball. if he is rolling it back with his hand or foot he should be fair game to be smashed. Its ridiculous.
"Escorting" the kick receiver.....basically legalised blocking.
Going to ground at the end of the game to kill the clock. phases after phase of pick and go and a lad essentially falling on the ground pre contact.
Shoulder charging is illegal......except when defending your own goal line it seems where you just daisy cutter your shoulders into the knees of the attackers.
The game is in a bad place (has been for quite a while) and the advent in the 00's of Sean Edwards style blanket defence, mental skills coaches, video analysis sessions etc has cynically roboticised the game.
We are painting by numbers at this stage.
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@Machpants said in The Current State of Rugby:
Well this speed it up, or just introduce the ref more.
Really dislike this heaps, will obviously have TMO involved more, and another step to taking the human factor out of game. Game will end up with virtual players etc at rate we going!
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