Super Rugby 2023
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@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life Yes, and ...?
I believe it's an example of why NZ Rugby are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
5-6 teams is too few (Super)
14 teams is too many (NPC)
Any attempt in between will alienate supporters who miss out.
Yep and why I think we got the best of what we can do. I understand when people say there is quite a gulf between top and bottom, I would say much the same in any rugby (or most sports I have seen over years). NZ have 3-4 strong teams with Clan not to far off, Aus have a couple of teams that are capable of going deep in comp. Watch any comp. the premiership, top 14 etc all have got 4-6 teams stronger than rest, have a lot of players from certain clubs that play the best part of 8-12 tests a year, iin rugby it's a fact, Test rugby is peak and I actually like we got another level right behind it. But even in EPL soccer etc, there is only 3-4 teams in it with occasional upset. NBA basketball have the big teams usually near the top, and they have the top players and most money etc to pay them. We live in a world where professional sport is not about fair, but who can get best set up together.And anyway I enjoy it myself, and happy to admit it, while saying as any sport improvements can always be made.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
The Chiefs & Blues have just as many All Blacks in their squads, so why the emphasis on the Crusaders?
why does it matter? its the example that sparked @Nepia 's thought, it could have been one of the other teams but it obviously occurred to him watching that game
Well It's a pretty simplistic view in my opinion, I mean 10 years ago Highlanders brought in multiple All Blacks from other franchises before the 2013 season and finished 14th that year. After that dismal season Joseph Brown Dermody put a greater emphasis on developing players into All Blacks instead of signing them from other franchises - this yielded some of their most successful seasons in recent times (2014-2018) where Sopoaga, Naholo, Dixon, Squire, Coltman, Fekitoa, Evans, & Hemepo, were all developed into All Blacks.
Long term success is developed from the bottom up. Like the Crusaders. Sometimes teams like the Landers get lucky, such as 2015. The Highlanders have now given up in bringing in players, as a general rule. They are doing wjat other franchises are. Starting from the bottom. Next year about 16 of the squad will be 25 or under. For the most part that will assist in building culture and continuity.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2023:
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
The Chiefs & Blues have just as many All Blacks in their squads, so why the emphasis on the Crusaders?
why does it matter? its the example that sparked @Nepia 's thought, it could have been one of the other teams but it obviously occurred to him watching that game
Well It's a pretty simplistic view in my opinion, I mean 10 years ago Highlanders brought in multiple All Blacks from other franchises before the 2013 season and finished 14th that year. After that dismal season Joseph Brown Dermody put a greater emphasis on developing players into All Blacks instead of signing them from other franchises - this yielded some of their most successful seasons in recent times (2014-2018) where Sopoaga, Naholo, Dixon, Squire, Coltman, Fekitoa, Evans, & Hemepo, were all developed into All Blacks.
That’s a hell of a tact change…no one is arguing what Joseph et al did after 2013…I was replying to you seemingly being offended on behalf of the crusaders
Couple of things…we brought in 2 all blacks, whilst technically “multiple”…we didn’t buy a whole squad
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/7887763/All-Black-laden-Highlanders-squad-named
"The squad, to be captained by All Blacks hooker Andrew Hore, assisted by fellow international, winger Hosea Gear, as vice captain has famous faces such as Tony Woodcock, Brad Thorn, Ben Smith, Aaron Smith, Tamati Ellison and Ma'a Nonu in its ranks."
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2023:
@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life Yes, and ...?
I believe it's an example of why NZ Rugby are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
5-6 teams is too few (Super)
14 teams is too many (NPC)
Any attempt in between will alienate supporters who miss out.
NZ have 3-4 strong teams with Clan not to far off
lol @ hesitating to call the Hurricanes strong, they have arguably their best crop of players coming through in a decade, straight off the back of Wellington's first Premiership in 22 years, enviable depth across most positions, with a bunch from U20's like Harry Godfrey still yet to stamp their mark.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2023:
@KiwiMurph said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life Yes, and ...?
I believe it's an example of why NZ Rugby are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
5-6 teams is too few (Super)
14 teams is too many (NPC)
Any attempt in between will alienate supporters who miss out.
NZ have 3-4 strong teams with Clan not to far off
lol @ hesitating to call the Hurricanes strong, they have arguably their best crop of players coming through in decades, straight off the back of Wellington's first Premiership in 22 years, enviable depth across most positions, with a bunch from U20's like Harry Godfrey still yet to stamp their mark.
Well I a Canes man, so have to be positive lol, and even then I put 3-4 teams don't want to get ahead of myself..
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@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2023:
And the odds reflect that. Four NZ teams paying between $3 and $6.50 to win the comp. The Brumbies at $11. The Highlanders at $34 (massive unders), Everyone else is three figures.
This weekend the Highlanders, Crusaders and Hurricanes are almost unbackable favourites, and two of them are playing away.
This is why many of us would like to see NZ players allowed to play for Australian teams and still eligible for All Black selection, yes it probably wouldn't be overly beneficial for us (a sacrifice I'd be willing to make as a fan...) but it's ultimately what needs to happen in order to optimally engage the Australian market. Look at the percentage of the top NRL players who are Kiwis, obviously NZ players are fully integrated within all NRL sides and our players have an enormous influence across every team - It's really what makes the comp isn't it?
It's a professional game, there should be complete open slather between NZ & Aus franchises, it's a no brainer.
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@kiwi_expat Not a too dissimilar situation with Kiwi players being unable to play Origin in League. If hypothetically this law was changed from now, it would actually benefit the depth of players the All Blacks could select. Tonight's game between the Tahs and the Ponies would be a good example of that, each side probably fielding five or so players each. The Rebels are also playing reasonably well and have a descent Kiwi contingent, you could also include the Force, Reds and Drua.
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I am most likely completely wrong, but it feels to me that using betting odds for different sports with power bases in two different countries is rather flawed.
Betting agency odds are designed to cater to an audience and make the betting agency money aren't they? I can't really buy them as an official ranking system.
I will make zero effort to think of a better way though.
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NZR had the opportunity to re write things over a decade ago, however they did so with manipulated criteria designed to get a result.
I know anytime this conversation comes up, my team is always at the heart of conversation and always on the block in these hypothetical conversations, and I completely understand it.
If NZR was to grow a pair, I know I'd be pissed at my team being chopped, but I know that ultimately it would be for the greater good of NZ rugby's consolidation for survival, that said, I do wonder if we are too far past now and chopping teams now will actually push rugby off the edge.
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@taniwharugby not sure cutting NZ teams will help super rugby though taniwha, if it did ,I would see the sense. But 4 stroner NZ teams ripping 5 Aus teams a hole each week ,won't help anyone. It's the natural order of any comp almost in any sport, beginning of each year you know who will be top 4-6 teams with an occasional bolter. Look at English , French rugby, EPL soccer ,or any soccer comp,NBA etc, it's a fact that well run outfits will attract good players and so it goes on.
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2023:
@taniwharugby not sure cutting NZ teams will help super rugby though taniwha, if it did ,I would see the sense. But 4 stroner NZ teams ripping 5 Aus teams a hole each week ,won't help anyone. It's the natural order of any comp almost in any sport, beginning of each year you know who will be top 4-6 teams with an occasional bolter. Look at English , French rugby, EPL soccer ,or any soccer comp,NBA etc, it's a fact that well run outfits will attract good players and so it goes on.
I think he’s talking about the Taniwha.
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@gt12 ha yeah I didn't reply to the posts further up that were talking about npc teams as opposed to super.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2023:
And the odds reflect that. Four NZ teams paying between $3 and $6.50 to win the comp. The Brumbies at $11. The Highlanders at $34 (massive unders), Everyone else is three figures.
This weekend the Highlanders, Crusaders and Hurricanes are almost unbackable favourites, and two of them are playing away.
This is why many of us would like to see NZ players allowed to play for Australian teams and still eligible for All Black selection, yes it probably wouldn't be overly beneficial for us (a sacrifice I'd be willing to make as a fan...) but it's ultimately what needs to happen in order to optimally engage the Australian market. Look at the percentage of the top NRL players who are Kiwis, obviously NZ players are fully integrated within all NRL sides and our players have an enormous influence across every team - It's really what makes the comp isn't it?
It's a professional game, there should be complete open slather between NZ & Aus franchises, it's a no brainer.
The NRL isn't really analogous, the bulk of the teams are Australian except for the one random NZ side. The IP in the game, the good coaching etc is all in Australia. Rugby isn't like that.
But in saying that I don't have an issue with it but it would need some strict rules of player availability, stand downs etc. Because what if our top players go to Oz franchises and they work them into the ground Rodney style and they cease to be effective. Internationals are not an afterthought like in league, they are the goose that lays the golden egg so need to be protected.
The Broncos tore the Tigers a new one last night and that will happen to the lower ranked teams as the comp continues so it's not like the NRL is as perfect as the fans and media have been hyping it early this year.
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@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby 2023:
NZR had the opportunity to re write things over a decade ago, however they did so with manipulated criteria designed to get a result.
I know anytime this conversation comes up, my team is always at the heart of conversation and always on the block in these hypothetical conversations, and I completely understand it.
If NZR was to grow a pair, I know I'd be pissed at my team being chopped, but I know that ultimately it would be for the greater good of NZ rugby's consolidation for survival, that said, I do wonder if we are too far past now and chopping teams now will actually push rugby off the edge.
If the Magpies were chopped I'd probably remain interested just because of the rugby but I'm not going to lie and pretend I'd be as interested as I am now.
At any rate I'm not sure we're at melting everything down yet. It's year two of a brand new comp in a time where sport just doesn't have the allure it did in the past. As I said earlier, or in another thread, I'd want TV money to subsidise tickets so we can get bigger crowds, which should lead to more interest across the board.
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@Nepia On the issue of NRL, Kiwis make up a pretty descent amount of the talent in the competition, some figures go as high as 30%. At present changes are gradually being made which may indeed see Tier One eligible players being eligible to play Origin. At present Tier 2 nations can have players playing Origin and for their chosen country. This is most notable with Samoa and Tonga, who for the most part are also Kiwi eligible. A different issue to union I know. With the issue of Rugby in Australia, the Aussie and Drua are relying on our surplus talent to a large extent, probably in a similar way that the NRL is.
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@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2023:
@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby 2023:
NZR had the opportunity to re write things over a decade ago, however they did so with manipulated criteria designed to get a result.
I know anytime this conversation comes up, my team is always at the heart of conversation and always on the block in these hypothetical conversations, and I completely understand it.
If NZR was to grow a pair, I know I'd be pissed at my team being chopped, but I know that ultimately it would be for the greater good of NZ rugby's consolidation for survival, that said, I do wonder if we are too far past now and chopping teams now will actually push rugby off the edge.
If the Magpies were chopped I'd probably remain interested just because of the rugby but I'm not going to lie and pretend I'd be as interested as I am now.
At any rate I'm not sure we're at melting everything down yet. It's year two of a brand new comp in a time where sport just doesn't have the allure it did in the past. As I said earlier, or in another thread, I'd want TV money to subsidise tickets so we can get bigger crowds, which should lead to more interest across the board.
TV money does subsidise tickets, to stay afloat without TV money clubs and franchises would have to charge much more
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@kiwi_expat would you actually see enough players coming across for it to make a difference? Id be surprised. You'd still be more likely to get selected for the ABs from the Saders than the Tahs.
Plus arent the Aussie franchises operating with roughly half the money the NZ ones are? And how does it work with NZ/RA top up contracts? Would take a lot of adjustment to make it worthwhile.
The comp is just a failed idea. The games within each country are actually generally quite close and interesting (e.g. last night with Blues/Chiefs and Brumbies/Tahs both crackers). These are the games people are interested in, too, and get the best TV numbers and crowds. Its the crossover that doesn't work.
Shouldve just left it domestic with a champions style cup (maybe with Japan).
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I don't trust the Aussies not to use Kiwis being eligible to play for the ABs while playing for an Aussie team as a back door way of poaching some talent.
