Super Rugby 2023
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@Stargazer any context? or just a random post about a season 14 years ago?
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@Kiwiwomble Totally random. They have more posts like that.
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@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2023:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Winger Posting Reason is an insta ban isn't it?
it's not a bad article actually
Actually it's much better than that. It's bang on the money.
We complain about the Herald who are nothing more than NZR's marketing branch and obsequious journos. This is the type of contrarian article we should be supporting. Nothing kills a competition more than predictable (don't look at my tipping) outcomes and one fucking team constantly winning it.
And having the ball in play more actually exacerbates the problem. They're fixing the wrong things at the wrong level.
SR should be competitive between teams.
Tests are the ones needing more time in play to reduce the behemoth turgidity.
On this point, the Crusaders are essentially playing their C team this week and they're still fielding more ABs than the Highlanders. That's fucked up. Clearly their are contracting improvements that can be made that spread the NZ talent around ...
they were Crusaders before they became All Blacks, it's not like they were brought in from elsewhere, how many of them were no-names before they were developed by them? Bridge was a guy didn't even make his school's 1st XV, didn't make any representative teams, was a labourer with no intention to play professionally and didn't get started until he was 21/22, George Bower was a Highlanders discard from their development squad, he was behind several players & unwanted by them - George Bell, Noah Hotham, Christian Lio-Willie, were all unwanted by the Highlanders also!
Also how about some context.
How many are currently mainstays? those players are mostly at Chiefs, Blues, Hurricanes, none of them (not even Richie) would make my All Black starting side going by form of past 2 seasons, & most are just fringe players like Ennor, Bower, etc..
just because someone is a capped player doesn't mean they're better than another who's coming through.
Marino Mikaele Tu'u, Cameron Millar, Folau Fakatava, Ayden Johnstone, Shannon Frizell, Andrew Makalio, Sam Gilbert, Pari Pari Parkinson, Jermaine Ainsley, Daniel Lienert-Brown, Saula Ma'u, Thomas Umaga-Jensen, Aaron Smith, Billy Harmon, Sean Withy, Ethan de Groot, Fabian Holland.
A number of these players 1) could've easily done a job for ABs 2) are already making AB squads, Or 3) will likely see capped in the future.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
they were Crusaders before they became All Blacks, it's not like they were brought in from elsewhere, how many of them were no-names before they were developed by them? (Bridge was a guy didn't even make his school's 1st XV, didn't make any representative teams, was a labourer with no intention to play professionally and didn't get started until he was 21/22,
And didn't it fucking show?
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
Bridge was a guy didn't even make his school's 1st XV, didn't make any representative teams, was a labourer with no intention to play professionally and didn't get started until he was 21/22,
Huh? He made his 1st XV and played for Crusaders U20s.
Also, my post wasn't an attack on the Crusaders, it was on the structure that allows it to happen. Regardless of your list of players the simple fact is a very weakened Crusaders team has more ABs than the Highlanders. If one of the highlighted issues is a weakness in the competition (and as we have to compare everything to the NRL a lack of competitiveness in comparison) then it's a fair point to review the make up of our Super teams.
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The Chiefs & Blues have just as many All Blacks in their squads, so why the emphasis on the Crusaders?
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@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2023:
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
Bridge was a guy didn't even make his school's 1st XV, didn't make any representative teams, was a labourer with no intention to play professionally and didn't get started until he was 21/22,
If one of the highlighted issues is a weakness in the competition (and as we have to compare everything to the NRL a lack of competitiveness in comparison) then it's a fair point to review the make up of our Super teams.
One of five NZ franchises, there has always been 1 poorly performing NZ side - relative to the others.
I wouldn't be surprised if Highlanders didn't lose a single game against Australian opposition going forward.
We beat the Brumbies 35-12 in Canberra & made the SRP final in 2021 - with a worse team on paper than we have currently.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2023:
@antipodean said in Super Rugby 2023:
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Nepia said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Winger Posting Reason is an insta ban isn't it?
it's not a bad article actually
Actually it's much better than that. It's bang on the money.
We complain about the Herald who are nothing more than NZR's marketing branch and obsequious journos. This is the type of contrarian article we should be supporting. Nothing kills a competition more than predictable (don't look at my tipping) outcomes and one fucking team constantly winning it.
And having the ball in play more actually exacerbates the problem. They're fixing the wrong things at the wrong level.
SR should be competitive between teams.
Tests are the ones needing more time in play to reduce the behemoth turgidity.
On this point, the Crusaders are essentially playing their C team this week and they're still fielding more ABs than the Highlanders. That's fucked up. Clearly their are contracting improvements that can be made that spread the NZ talent around ...
they were Crusaders before they became All Blacks, it's not like they were brought in from elsewhere, how many of them were no-names before they were developed by them? Bridge was a guy didn't even make his school's 1st XV, didn't make any representative teams, was a labourer with no intention to play professionally and didn't get started until he was 21/22, George Bower was a Highlanders discard from their development squad, he was behind several players & unwanted by them - George Bell, Noah Hotham, Christian Lio-Willie, were all unwanted by the Highlanders also!
Also how about some context.
How many are currently mainstays? those players are mostly at Chiefs, Blues, Hurricanes, none of them (not even Richie) would make my All Black starting side going by form of past 2 seasons, & most are just fringe players like Ennor, Bower, etc..
just because someone is a capped player doesn't mean they're better than another who's coming through.
Marino Mikaele Tu'u, Cameron Millar, Folau Fakatava, Ayden Johnstone, Shannon Frizell, Andrew Makalio, Sam Gilbert, Pari Pari Parkinson, Jermaine Ainsley, Daniel Lienert-Brown, Saula Ma'u, Thomas Umaga-Jensen, Aaron Smith, Billy Harmon, Sean Withy, Ethan de Groot, Fabian Holland.
A number of these players 1) could've easily done a job for ABs 2) are already making AB squads, Or 3) will likely see capped in the future.
From the quote below, its clear that the Landers didn’t want Lio Willie. WTF are you on about?
He jumped after getting the call from Razor.
That could make it a fixture perfect to start new Highlanders loose forward Christian Lio-Willie, who had a strong impact off the bench on debut against the Brumbies, but Dermody hinted they would be patient with the development of a player who has the potential to be a key Highlander for years to come. “We're stoked for Christian,” Dermody said. “He’s been with us all year and obviously broke his thumb in the preseason, which ruled him out for a long time. “We're excited with what he can do, and looking forward to getting him opportunity when it suits. “He's not a young guy, in his mid 20s, but he hasn’t played a lot of rugby at this level. “But, I think everyone can see the talent he’s got around the collision stuff. He's grown his game a lot in the last four or five months with us. There’s definitely a lot of upside for him.” -
@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
he was behind several players & unwanted by them - George Bell, Noah Hotham, Christian Lio-Willie, were all unwanted by the Highlanders also!
Is this right? I guess the Highlanders have two quality half backs already but with Smith leaving next year it seems incredible if they didn't want a quality third HB
Were they wnated but just not enough. Like Patafilo who was offered a contract but I've read was a joke amount of money. But who knows if true or not.
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@kiwi_expat said in Super Rugby 2023:
The Chiefs & Blues have just as many All Blacks in their squads, so why the emphasis on the Crusaders?
why does it matter? its the example that sparked @Nepia 's thought, it could have been one of the other teams but it obviously occurred to him watching that game
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See one of things I enjoy about the comp is the fact everyone in the club from the very top down to coaches, players developments systems etc have to be good. Some are better than others , and OK some players are attracted to better performing teams etc, but that just helps with the comp. Now the idea of evening up teams like through drafts etc , just tends to almost encourage teams to not go well once they realsie thay can't win, as lower down they are the better picks they get. Against all I think should happen in the game!
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@Winger said in Super Rugby 2023:
@gt12 said in Super Rugby 2023:
From the quote below, its clear that the Landers didn’t want Lio Willie
Did?
Sarcasm filter.
There is no evidence that the Landers didn't want Lio Willie, or Hotham (they'd be mad not to have tried to sign him), or Bell (scholarship to Lincoln with Crusaders academy).
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2023:
... teams to not go well once they realsie thay can't win, as lower down they are the better picks they get. Against all I think should happen in the game!
i kind of feel thats already the case, just because there is no jeopardy (relegation like football), the benefit of a draft would be that glimmer of hope fans would get, give losing teams something to talk about and look forward too, what do we need? who's coming though? will so and so go into the draft? it might direct eyes to the NPC and 1stXV rugby
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2023:
Now the idea of evening up teams like through drafts etc , just tends to almost encourage teams to not go well once they realsie thay can't win,
For me its essential to have a more even competition if SRP wants to survive. One team always winning (and then being able to attract the best young players) is not a great way to get the crowds back
One option would be to just give the weaker teams more money. To attract the better players. This could apply within countries but also overall. Say a percentage of broadcasting money would be allocated to ensure team are more competitive.
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the problem with Super Rugby as a sports competition is, it is too top heavy
Entering the season, actually, entering every season, 7 teams know they are no hope of winning. One know they need things to go their way. The other 4 know 3 of them will play semi finals, and then they are two wins away.
And the odds reflect that. Four NZ teams paying between $3 and $6.50 to win the comp. The Brumbies at $11. The Highlanders at $34 (massive unders), Everyone else is three figures.
Contrast to the NRL (its most direct competition). Four teams $4.25 to $8. One at $11. You then get six more teams before you get to Highlanders odds. And that favourite has already lost twice. The fucking Warriors are paying less than the Highlanders to win the comp. That should tell you something about the realities of the situation in Dunedin.
This weekend the Highlanders, Crusaders and Hurricanes are almost unbackable favourites, and two of them are playing away.
There is precisely one game worth watching as a neutral this weekend.
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@mariner4life i would add the NPC is less predictable, sure the ultimate champion is often one of a select few, but going back over the last 20 years and almost everyone has made top 4 at some point
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the crazy thing is
its not even like the NRL is this wide open competition. The Roosters, Melbourne, Souths and recently Penrith go in to every year thinking they can win. The Tigers haven't played finals in like 12 years. The Warriors once in a decade.
But their expansion team is sitting top 4. And if the previously unbeaten Broncos rested Reynolds, Carrigan, Haas, and Walsh they would lose to the winless Tigers.
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@Winger said in Super Rugby 2023:
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2023:
Now the idea of evening up teams like through drafts etc , just tends to almost encourage teams to not go well once they realsie thay can't win,
For me its essential to have a more even competition if SRP wants to survive. One team always winning (and then being able to attract the best young players) is not a great way to get the crowds back
One option would be to just give the weaker teams more money. To attract the better players. This could apply within countries but also overall. Say a percentage of broadcasting money would be allocated to ensure team are more competitive.
Once again encourages teams that aren't going to win comp to not show interest as lower they are more money they get?
Think they have had same problem a few years back in AFL, and definitely read about in NFL and NBA in US.
I lived for 20 odd years in Brisbane and read every year the Broncos were unbeatable favourites because the Sydney clubs were disgusted they were a 1 team city so got more coin than the rest.. Seems that was just whining, when they got arses in gear.
And I never watched NRL, just saw it in papers, and was proof everyone can come up with excuses or just f***en do better! -
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2023:
Four NZ teams paying between $3 and $6.50 to win the comp. The Brumbies at $11. The Highlanders at $34 (massive unders), Everyone else is three figures.
If the Aussies only had two teams, they would be right up there with the best NZ sides. That is not going to happen
I'll repeat myself but would prefer a consolidation of pro/semi pro rugby in NZ. 5 teams is too few, 14 teams is too many. The AB's produced very good sides with 9 first div NPC sides
8-10 NZ sides would match very well with the Aussies. A more competitive competition with games played in more locations. Players playing closer to their real homes would increase tribalism
But SR & NPC are sacred cows. Both must continue to exist forever in front of smaller & smaller & older crowds.
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