All Black midfield options
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Black midfield options:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
In rare compliment to Foster team they did well to stick with Ioane at 13 despite criticism of him there but the wider midfield cupboard is so crazily bare. Ennor is a quick no from me there, they should have maybe tried Big Leicester there (or Nankivell at 12) but are there any more options at 13? Did someone say Shaun Stevenson? Athletically yes, but decision-making seems too risky to me..
< thinks, haven't had any crazy ideas lately >...
Is there any back with heaps of AB experience but hasn't locked down their chosen background, with intimate knowledge of the AB game plan and team mates, who can step in in an emergency, has a kicking game, reasonably fast, unpredictable, not much smaller than Ioane, underrated at tackling, can pass, plays well with Jordie?I raised the question of SS at 13. He runs amazing lines and seems to break the line consistently. I did acknowledge I know nothing of his defensive capabilities or his distribution skills. For other 13s, Umaga-Jenson brothers?
I'm on the UJ bandwagon. As someone pointed out they are injury magnets esp TUJ. But I still think they were worth a look at XV-level. Edit oh and on SS, well it wouldn't have hurt to try him out but I guess that window has closed now.
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@nostrildamus said in All Black midfield options:
@Kirwan said in All Black midfield options:
@Duluth said in All Black midfield options:
@Stargazer said in All Black midfield options:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
In rare compliment to Foster team they did well to stick with Ioane at 13 despite criticism of him there but the wider midfield cupboard is so crazily bare. Ennor is a quick no from me there, they should have maybe tried Big Leicester there (or Nankivell at 12) but are there any more options at 13? Did someone say Shaun Stevenson? Athletically yes, but decision-making seems too risky to me..
< thinks, haven't had any crazy ideas lately >...
Is there any back with heaps of AB experience but hasn't locked down their chosen background, with intimate knowledge of the AB game plan and team mates, who can step in in an emergency, has a kicking game, reasonably fast, unpredictable, not much smaller than Ioane, underrated at tackling, can pass, plays well with Jordie?The only one I can think of is Bailyn Sullivan, who was good for All Blacks XV. But he's more a fast guy than a big physical specimen. I can't see Stevenson at 13 at all.
Heem is another one in the mix (I wouldn't have said that before the AB xv squad selection)
Big, fast and can play 11,12,13,14 with a lower error rate than most of the other options
I doubt he'd get capped under normal circumstances. However if there was an injury on the eve of the RWC I think he might get the nod.
Pretty much the Richard Kahui for this cycle, not the top choice but experienced, makes few mistakes and is big, fast and skillfull.
although I thought Kahui was an absolute star on the wing for the ABs-did he have a bad game there? I don't recall one.
If Heem olayed 4 years for the AB 7s he must be pretty handy. Seems about SBW size (1.93, 103-105kg) as well. That would be a big midfield with Jordie.
Handsome Richie was fucking awful for the Chiefs after his 1st or was it his 2nd big injury. Couldn't catch, pass or tackle but by some miracle the Zoo picked him. And he was insane. Was it against Wales where he came on for a cameo and tore them a new arsehole? He also brought the sexy bitches to the games too so...
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@nostrildamus said in All Black midfield options:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Black midfield options:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
In rare compliment to Foster team they did well to stick with Ioane at 13 despite criticism of him there but the wider midfield cupboard is so crazily bare. Ennor is a quick no from me there, they should have maybe tried Big Leicester there (or Nankivell at 12) but are there any more options at 13? Did someone say Shaun Stevenson? Athletically yes, but decision-making seems too risky to me..
< thinks, haven't had any crazy ideas lately >...
Is there any back with heaps of AB experience but hasn't locked down their chosen background, with intimate knowledge of the AB game plan and team mates, who can step in in an emergency, has a kicking game, reasonably fast, unpredictable, not much smaller than Ioane, underrated at tackling, can pass, plays well with Jordie?I raised the question of SS at 13. He runs amazing lines and seems to break the line consistently. I did acknowledge I know nothing of his defensive capabilities or his distribution skills. For other 13s, Umaga-Jenson brothers?
I'm on the UJ bandwagon. As someone pointed out they are injury magnets esp TUJ. But I still think they were worth a look at XV-level. Edit oh and on SS, well it wouldn't have hurt to try him out but I guess that window has closed now.
I reckon SS is an AB next year.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Black midfield options:
@nostrildamus said in All Black midfield options:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Black midfield options:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v England:
In rare compliment to Foster team they did well to stick with Ioane at 13 despite criticism of him there but the wider midfield cupboard is so crazily bare. Ennor is a quick no from me there, they should have maybe tried Big Leicester there (or Nankivell at 12) but are there any more options at 13? Did someone say Shaun Stevenson? Athletically yes, but decision-making seems too risky to me..
< thinks, haven't had any crazy ideas lately >...
Is there any back with heaps of AB experience but hasn't locked down their chosen background, with intimate knowledge of the AB game plan and team mates, who can step in in an emergency, has a kicking game, reasonably fast, unpredictable, not much smaller than Ioane, underrated at tackling, can pass, plays well with Jordie?I raised the question of SS at 13. He runs amazing lines and seems to break the line consistently. I did acknowledge I know nothing of his defensive capabilities or his distribution skills. For other 13s, Umaga-Jenson brothers?
I'm on the UJ bandwagon. As someone pointed out they are injury magnets esp TUJ. But I still think they were worth a look at XV-level. Edit oh and on SS, well it wouldn't have hurt to try him out but I guess that window has closed now.
I reckon SS is an AB next year.
at RWC? Worth a punt on a new hat. But I won't wager, I think there will be risky last-minute injury replacements.
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I'm super excited about what Jordie and Rieko can do as a combination. They are both world class players in their own right and compliment each other perfectly. Half the reason I was so annoyed about the Havili selection is I'm desperate to see them play together more. Barring injury I'm expecting them to be our centre pairing for this WC and the next, and go down as one of our best ever.
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@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
I'm super excited about what Jordie and Rieko can do as a combination. They are both world class players in their own right and compliment each other perfectly. Half the reason I was so annoyed about the Havili selection is I'm desperate to see them play together more. Barring injury I'm expecting them to be our centre pairing for this WC and the next, and go down as one of our best ever.
I was with you until the final line 😅
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@canefan said in All Black midfield options:
@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
I'm super excited about what Jordie and Rieko can do as a combination. They are both world class players in their own right and compliment each other perfectly. Half the reason I was so annoyed about the Havili selection is I'm desperate to see them play together more. Barring injury I'm expecting them to be our centre pairing for this WC and the next, and go down as one of our best ever.
I was with you until the final line 😅
Why's that?
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@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
@canefan said in All Black midfield options:
@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
I'm super excited about what Jordie and Rieko can do as a combination. They are both world class players in their own right and compliment each other perfectly. Half the reason I was so annoyed about the Havili selection is I'm desperate to see them play together more. Barring injury I'm expecting them to be our centre pairing for this WC and the next, and go down as one of our best ever.
I was with you until the final line 😅
Why's that?
I'll settle for very good pairing for the moment. One of our best ever? That's a big call
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I don't think the cupboard is bare in the midfield.
We will probably need four midfielders for RWC and we can immediately choose from five - Jordie, Havili, Goodhue, ALB and Rieko - all of whom are decent enough options, none of them quite best-in-the world- Ma'a Nonu. We've additionally got RTS and Tupaea and a few others who could play there in a pinch.
There's doubtless people who will harp about Havili and especially that intercept pass, but it's all a matter of probabilities. Ben Smith barely made a mistake for several seasons, but in 2015, he was the guy binned in the final. Pretty low probability, but it happened.
Havili is good enough that we can win with him at 2nd five if we had to play him there. He's a bit journeyman at test level, but not a disaster.
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wait, the argument that DH isn't a bit shit is that one time an actually really good player made a mistake?
The lines rolled out for this bloke are awesome:
He's not shit, he just didn't have the right 9, 10, and 13 to perform well
He didn't track back after he gift wrapped the try because he thought it was someone elses job
Ben Smith wasn't infallible.The defence fucking rests your honour
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@canefan said in All Black midfield options:
@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
@canefan said in All Black midfield options:
@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
I'm super excited about what Jordie and Rieko can do as a combination. They are both world class players in their own right and compliment each other perfectly. Half the reason I was so annoyed about the Havili selection is I'm desperate to see them play together more. Barring injury I'm expecting them to be our centre pairing for this WC and the next, and go down as one of our best ever.
I was with you until the final line 😅
Why's that?
I'll settle for very good pairing for the moment. One of our best ever? That's a big call
That's what the Fern is for - making the big calls! Then either pretending you never said it, or rubbing it in everyone's face if it comes true.
But seriously, they don't have the same attributes as our previous 'best ever' centre pairings, but that doesn't mean they can't be as effective. They are both outrageously talented - Jordie a physical presence with ball in hand and on defense, with a big boot, good pass and excellent vision which will only improve with more time at 12. Then Rieko is probably our most exciting back since Cullen, his raw pace off the mark is basically unmatched, and the way Jordie attracts defenders is going to give Rieko that extra half a yard of space which is all he needs to absolutely burn teams.
Those two together is a seriously difficult proposition for opposition defenses. I can't wait to see them in action more.
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@mariner4life No. The argument is that we've won quite a bit more against big teams than we've lost with Havili in the team.
He's no Ma'a Nonu, but he's decent enough.
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What's the word on Goodhue coming back? I was never sold on him at 12, but is there a discussion if he's fit, that he could oust ALB for bench covering 12/13? I think he's definitely a better 13 than ALB, and maybe more of a like-for-like swap with Jordie if he gets injured. Combo is a bit slow on gas if we lose Rieko, but ALB is no speed demon either.
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@Chris-B said in All Black midfield options:
@mariner4life No. The argument is that we've won quite a bit more against big teams than we've lost with Havili in the team.
He's no Ma'a Nonu, but he's decent enough.
I don't know if we can afford to play him next to Mo'unga. Our inside channel becomes a real liability on defense. He also can't be paired with ALB as we saw in the weekend, and he doesn't attract any defense in close to free up space for his outsides. I think he's a decent squaddie but if we're down to him starting a big test we're in a bit of trouble.
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@voodoo I think he got picked for the ABs after the Super season, but still had knee problems that eventually required surgery. As far as I know, he should be back for next year.
His original injury was pretty bad though.
IMO Jack's a bit lacking in pace at centre and maybe a bit short on kicking skills at 12, but serviceable enough in both positions. He's a very good reader on defense and distributes well. Could still probably be used in either position.
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@voodoo said in All Black midfield options:
What's the word on Goodhue coming back? I was never sold on him at 12, but is there a discussion if he's fit, that he could oust ALB for bench covering 12/13? I think he's definitely a better 13 than ALB, and maybe more of a like-for-like swap with Jordie if he gets injured. Combo is a bit slow on gas if we lose Rieko, but ALB is no speed demon either.
Was. Injuries. And ALB was better than he is now at 13 before his layoff so there is that risk as well.
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@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
@Chris-B said in All Black midfield options:
@mariner4life No. The argument is that we've won quite a bit more against big teams than we've lost with Havili in the team.
He's no Ma'a Nonu, but he's decent enough.
I don't know if we can afford to play him next to Mo'unga. Our inside channel becomes a real liability on defense. He also can't be paired with ALB as we saw in the weekend, and he doesn't attract any defense in close to free up space for his outsides. I think he's a decent squaddie but if we're down to him starting a big test we're in a bit of trouble.
Yeah - I've got significant doubts that Dave and Anton are incisive enough. Dave and Rieko work OK. Dave is a bit Aaron Mauger, which will "attract attention".
I'd be very happy to have Jordie at 12 if I didn't also want him at 15. I'm probably less convinced about Beaudy there than some, these days
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@nostrildamus said in All Black midfield options:
@voodoo said in All Black midfield options:
What's the word on Goodhue coming back? I was never sold on him at 12, but is there a discussion if he's fit, that he could oust ALB for bench covering 12/13? I think he's definitely a better 13 than ALB, and maybe more of a like-for-like swap with Jordie if he gets injured. Combo is a bit slow on gas if we lose Rieko, but ALB is no speed demon either.
Was. Injuries. And ALB was better than he is now at 13 before his layoff so there is that risk as well.
Yeah, I meant near-peak Jack vs back-to-full-fitness ALB
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@Chris-B said in All Black midfield options:
@No-Quarter said in All Black midfield options:
@Chris-B said in All Black midfield options:
@mariner4life No. The argument is that we've won quite a bit more against big teams than we've lost with Havili in the team.
He's no Ma'a Nonu, but he's decent enough.
I don't know if we can afford to play him next to Mo'unga. Our inside channel becomes a real liability on defense. He also can't be paired with ALB as we saw in the weekend, and he doesn't attract any defense in close to free up space for his outsides. I think he's a decent squaddie but if we're down to him starting a big test we're in a bit of trouble.
Yeah - I've got significant doubts that Dave and Anton are incisive enough. Dave and Rieko work OK. Dave is a bit Aaron Mauger, which will "attract attention".
I'd be very happy to have Jordie at 12 if I didn't also want him at 15. I'm probably less convinced about Beaudy there than some, these days
I think Beauden has played some of his best rugby for the ABs at 15, and he'll offer a lot more than Jordie on attack from the back. Do you think your boy Will is ready for the 15 jumper yet? I am sympathetic to your views on Jordie at the back though, he'll diffuse any plans teams have to launch high balls at us to the point that they are just giving back possession. However I'm not sure we can afford to be too defensively minded this RWC - if we're gonna win it we are going to have to throw caution to the wind and try to rack up some points against the big teams, as our defense hasn't been good enough to keep them under 20 points on consistent basis.
My backline right now has to be:
9. Smith
10. Mo'unga
11. Clarke
12. Jordie
13. Rieko
14. Jordan
15. BeaudenYou could slot Jordan at 15 and Reece on the right wing and we don't lose much. But to me that gives us the best balance of play makers and players that can genuinely beat their man and score points from almost anywhere. You put those guys behind our improved forward performances of late and we're in with a very good shout.
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@voodoo said in All Black midfield options:
What's the word on Goodhue coming back? I was never sold on him at 12, but is there a discussion if he's fit, that he could oust ALB for bench covering 12/13? I think he's definitely a better 13 than ALB, and maybe more of a like-for-like swap with Jordie if he gets injured. Combo is a bit slow on gas if we lose Rieko, but ALB is no speed demon either.
Word out of the Crusaders he is back for the start of SR along with Grace and Blackadder.
