So what did we learn from Bled2?
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@MajorRage said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.
Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.
I am not as down on Havili as many others as I think we've seen enough of him to suggest future there. He's had a couple of misreads which have cost, but he certainly hasn't disgraced himself.
Not the misreads that worry me - it's the size and the lack of physicality at times. He can get get bounced backwards offensively, and defensively struggles to put in dominant hits. Having smaller passive defenders can be covered if there are other attributes brought to the table, but playing outside Smith and Mo'unga gets exposed at the top level.
Above all, whether he's the right guy or not, at least the coaches picked one and stuck with them. I'm dying in my own ditch that Laumape could have been our guy there, but he plateaued, got a chip on his shoulder and then left the room.
Also, Havili started brilliantly at 12, albeit against weaker sides. He's been more solid this year, but still not a patch on JB
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Was pretty impressed with Jordie on Saturday, and it's interesting isn't it, there seems no doubt he should be starting, it's just where. While I was mightily impressed with his game, I would be keen to see more before I annoint him as the second coming, but if he can repeat that (and was pretty good week before filling in there) a couple of times I will be very happy. I like the triple threat of passing, kicking and running, and with power (where he has it over Havili), and like he can be dominant in defence.
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@Chris-B Jeez I'd put money down on 10% . We now have a front row remember; and a 12
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@BerniesCorner said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Chris-B Jeez I'd put money down on 10% . We now have a front row remember; and a 12
second favourites behind France...
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@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@canefan said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
If nothing else, Foster has two potential candidates for the 12 jersey who have both played well lately
I think with his aerial game he may be more value against the better teams at 15. Jordie needs more game time at 12 though.
But if opposition teams continue to run through our back line the way Ireland did, it won't matter who is taking the bombs. Not to mention the fact that we barely got any penetration when we had the ball. Besides, both BB and Caleb have shown ability in this regard
I didn’t think our backline defence per se was that bad other than Beaudie and Jordie missing a few tackles in tests 2 and 3. It was more our defensive line when we found ourselves with tight forwards in vulnerable positions wider of the ruck. Ireland exploited that very well.
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@chimoaus Yep time is getting short.
I think we nail the colours to the mast .A Smith - Mo - JB - Ioane - WJ - BB - One other
de Groot - Sami - Lomax - RetLock - Retlock - Savea - Paps - one other
I like the look of that.
Mo kicks
JB occasional howitzer
Captain, Sam the Taller -
A Smith - Mo - JB - Ioane - WJ - BB
Look at that, there's some serious x-factor right there
Speed, distribution (JB), no looks (AS), cross kick and mullet
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Did anyone really think Havili was any kind of longterm prospect at 12? He's a very talented player but never seemed comfortable at 12. In contrast Jordie slotted right in there. Which makes perfect farking sense because that was his preferred position until signing for the Canes and having brick shithouse Laumape at 12.
Assuming Foster actually has a brain and continues to select JB at 12, Havili will still be a handy bench option.
I've been on the anyone by Havili bandwagon ever since he got out muscled by the Bokke last year, and when that continued up north.
However this year he's looked really good.
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Not sure why there's a trend here for discarding Clarke.
Defensive lessons can be built on as can familiarity and positioning for linking plays after breaks.
No one can teach his innate abilities and strength to make breaks and half breaks through tackles though and that's a skill none of the other options have.
Reece is in the same bucket as Jordan from what I can see. If Jordan is at 15 then Reece takes his wing otherwise he is backup. -
@geeky said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
My team for 2023:
forwards: DeG, ST, Lomax, Ret, Wlock, SBarrett, Papali'i, Savea.
backs: Smith, Mo, JB, Goodhue, Ioane, Jordan, Reece.
subs: Bower/Moody, Newell, Taylor, Va'ai, A.Ioane.
Fakatava, ALB/Clarke, Barrett.
Assume this is what you want, rather than what you predict? If not, you're dreaming and delusional.
No way Ioane moves from 13 now and no way Jordan gets pushed to 15.
I also have no idea why you'd want SB to start at 6, and your only 8 cover is Akira?
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@Crucial said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Reece is in the same bucket as Jordan from what I can see. If Jordan is at 15 then Reece takes his wing otherwise he is backup.
I'd say they are competing for the same spot - but honestly I 'd take Reece. his workrate is amazing, and he does really strong ruck work. Not much in it though, now that WJ has started to perform better
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@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Crucial said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Reece is in the same bucket as Jordan from what I can see. If Jordan is at 15 then Reece takes his wing otherwise he is backup.
I'd say they are competing for the same spot - but honestly I 'd take Reece. his workrate is amazing, and he does really strong ruck work. Not much in it though, now that WJ has started to perform better
I think they see Clarke as the specialist left , Jordan as the specialist right , Reece as the guy that covers both spots
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@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Crucial said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
Reece is in the same bucket as Jordan from what I can see. If Jordan is at 15 then Reece takes his wing otherwise he is backup.
I'd say they are competing for the same spot - but honestly I 'd take Reece. his workrate is amazing, and he does really strong ruck work. Not much in it though, now that WJ has started to perform better
Reece is an odd one isn't he, for a wing he gets through so much work close in, great kick chaser, great footwork in close to the ruck, cleans well as you say. Does he score the try Jordan scored by gassing his outside though?
I think Jordan has the edge, he has that trait that only the special few have, and that's seeming to always get the bounce of the ball. I think he's coming right back into form, and he's the sort of guy who can have that one moment in a big game when we need it most
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@voodoo said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
that's seeming to always get the bounce of the ball.
well, sometimes
We tend to have confirmation bias a fair bit. I'm not sure why Reece fell out of favour - he's been the go to for some time. His work in the 2019 pool game against SA was exceptional (I know, a few years ago - but he was superb there).
As an example, Argentina in Ham, the cross kick RM(?) put in fell into the no mans space between WJ and the Argie defender. WJ had a poor game that day, and his indecision about contesting or tackling was noticeable. I wouldn't go as far as 'disinterested' but the workrate you'd like to see was not there.
anyway, quality players both, and not much between them. AB issues are not on the right wing at the moment
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To me Jordie's characteristics suit 12 as opposed to 15 and it suits the balance of the team better.
He's not super quick in open space (remember his time on the wing) and I think he actually kicks better tactically from closer in than he does back at fullback - there are different pictures when kicking up in the line vs at fullback.
Because he's not super quick I think he actually creates more opportunities for others at 12 where can use his power and offloading to create second chance opportunities (not to mention his wide passing game) whereas at 15 he's solid but I didn't find he created many opportunities back there.
Could very well be confirmation bias.
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@nzzp said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@voodoo said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
that's seeming to always get the bounce of the ball.
well, sometimes
We tend to have confirmation bias a fair bit. I'm not sure why Reece fell out of favour - he's been the go to for some time. His work in the 2019 pool game against SA was exceptional (I know, a few years ago - but he was superb there).
As an example, Argentina in Ham, the cross kick RM(?) put in fell into the no mans space between WJ and the Argie defender. WJ had a poor game that day, and his indecision about contesting or tackling was noticeable. I wouldn't go as far as 'disinterested' but the workrate you'd like to see was not there.
anyway, quality players both, and not much between them. AB issues are not on the right wing at the moment
Reece is easily NZ's best right winger, incredible work-rate, brilliant under highball, very strong defensively, & his work off the ball is exceptional, Plus he reads the game really well and always puts himself in the right place at the right time to create opportunities, it's something that gets overlooked but Reece has excellent in-game awareness and intelligence. In my opinion, he's one of the most complete wingers in the world yet Foster doesn't even pick him, it's insane really.
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@geeky said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
He's probably one of the most complete wingers in the world, yet Foster doesn't even pick him, it's insane really.
he's going up against someone who has done ridiculous things at lower levels consistently, and is dynamite going forward. I prefer Reece (just), but calling it insane is some kind of hyperbole.
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@nzzp I'm a Crusaders fan and reckon Reece has definitely been more influential for us.
Jordan is a bit of a flake on defense and often dies on attack like McKenzie from taking the wrong option or turning over the ball, whereas Reece always keeps the ball alive and always takes the right option, also Reece brings a lot more physicality because of his weight (99kg) and low COG, and the one aspect I love about him is watching how he's constantly working hard to make a positive impact without the ball, something Jordan's learning to develop a bit more now under Schmidt's coaching.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
@Stargazer said in So what did we learn from Bled2?:
I think they should use Jordie at 12 against the big physical teams and persist with Havili against weaker opponents,
I don't know how you rate the current Wobblies squad, but Havilli did pretty damn good against the Boks at Ellis Park - and they are never weak opponents there.
Lol steady on, he was nothing more than solid in that match, and not even in the conversation for MOTM. Jordie is so far ahead of him in every aspect of play it's not even funny, the only question is whether Jordie is at 12 or 15. It seems pretty clear Jordie will be more influential at 12, which pushes Havili to the bench, and then when ALB returns out of the 23.
I'm loathe to want Jordie starting at FB purely for his work under the high ball. That seems an incredibly defensive approach, and it's not like Beauden and Clarke are weak in that regard anyway.
