Foster, Robertson etc
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster:
Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
I hope not. Wylie-Hart was a fiasco.
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@game_film yeah you'd like to think after the last meeting they supposedly had some strict expectations were put in place, with this very scenario being one.
I'd have thought when they extended his contract last year they would have put KPIs in, and to me, winning home series v Ireland and retatinng Bledisloe would have been absolute musts, finish top 2 in RC is must.
But, based on the fact they are having to pay him out to get rid of him, indicates there were probably no such indicators.
I guess you have to look at his team now, and ask if this is the team he wants now? Would he cut McLeod or any others loose to bolster it and stay in the job himself.
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@BerniesCorner said in Foster:
Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
I hope not. Wylie-Hart was a fiasco.
True, though my hunch is that Foster is a lot more affable and collaborative than those two. Depends very much on any co-coach though.
They may well decide that they have something close to it now with Schmidt and Ryan in the mix.
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@Donsteppa said in Foster:
@BerniesCorner said in Foster:
Could a new co coach scenario be a possibility
I hope not. Wylie-Hart was a fiasco.
True, though my hunch is that Foster is a lot more affable and collaborative than those two. Depends very much on any co-coach though.
They may well decide that they have something close to it now with Schmidt and Ryan in the mix.
Bang on. Foster himself has said that the adversity has changed him, that other approaches/ideas have been accepted (I assume from Ryan and Joe)
He clearly hasn't lost the support of the players (which is the biggest red flag and reason to dump a coach) so why not let that evolution continue? You obviously end up with someone who is demonstrably a very good man manager (I would challenge someone else to get through these last weeks with their team in the manner he has - it was very impressive) alongside some good rugby brains and abilities.
I think they all know there is room to keep evolving as well now they are over this massive hurdle. Throwing big changes in there during the last few games was probably thought of internally as looking like panic instead of trust.
I think we are over the Front Row youth debate. Stick there now and move on. The midfield solution is next. Lets see if RTS can get on the field and show us something (his lack of kicking game and positional flexibility probably isn't in his favour though)
I think we will see Grace come back into contention. He didn't time his performances well as far as consistency went but is clearly in that space now.
By not making a decision to move past Foster in the off season, NZR have ended up in a bad situation if they want change. The emotional disruption and mistrust among some players will now be harder to accept. There will be feelings of guilt from players that blame themselves etc. All of that could have been watered down far more easily if it was a case of 'we are re-setting and moving on' with time to do it.There's a lot of people and media dying to have their personal views validated at the moment but the key is to take a step back and look at the consequences and advantages of ditching him right at this moment.
Are we looking at the future situation of lessons being applied or the past mistakes that lead to those lessons.One thing I do know and that is that he has demonstrated that he deserves far better than some of the shit being slung his way. If anything one of his failures has been giving others too much chance to atone for theirs. He has a muppet as a boss and handled the situation with the type of trust among the squad that everyone points to as one of Razor's key strengths.
If the progress doesn't continue (and there will be hiccups) and he is obviously the road block then by all means get him out of the way but I have a feeling that a battle hardened coach and team that have been through adversity may be just what we need to change the mindset of turning up to games with underlying entitlement.
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@Donsteppa said in Foster:
They may well decide that they have something close to it now with Schmidt and Ryan in the mix.
Hope so as the speculation and instability isn't helping anyone - least of all the team & the coaches. Need focus on showing progress against Argentina - who will be much tougher opponents than last time we played them.
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Just for a little perspective.
Foster coached the Chiefs with the following results.
In the 2004 Super 12 season, 7 wins from 11 games with 274 points for and 251 against. Placed 4th on the table. The Chiefs lost their semifinal 17-32 to the Brumbies, the eventual champions, at Canberra Stadium.
2005, 5 wins and a draw from 11 games with 272 points for and 250 against. Placed 6th.
2006, 7 wins and a draw from 13 games with 325 points for and 298 against. Placed 7th.
2007, 7 wins and a draw from 13 games with 373 points for and 321 against. Placed 7th.
2008, 7 wins from 13 games with 348 points for and 349 against. Placed 7th.
2009, 9 wins from 13 games with 338 points for and 236 against. Placed 2nd. The Chiefs beat the Hurricanes 14-10 in a home semi-final and then lost 17-61 to the Bulls in the final at Loftus Versfeld Stadium, Pretoria.
2010, 4 wins and a draw from 13 games with 340 points for and 418 against. Placed 10th.
2011, 6 wins and a draw from 18 games with 332 points for and 348 against. Placed 5th in the New Zealand conference and 10th overall.Scott Robertson has won the Super rugby title six times and the NPC title three times.
Prediction:
After "intensive review" and "extensive consultation with all stakeholders" they decide to keep Foster. Foster will say all the right things at all the right times to all the right people. Because one thing he is good at, is keeping his job despite absolute mediocrity.The big cautionary note that I'll add to Ian Foster's role continuing, or not, is this set of results that @Frank has posted.
I am probably blurring in a couple of the late 90's seasons with this too, but my memory of some of those mid table Chiefs finishes with Ian Foster in charge was roughly:
- Poor start to the season
- Eventually reach the point where the semi-finals are all but mathematically out of reach
- Backs to the wall, turn it around with a few late season genuinely impressive performances
- Conclude that that the Chiefs are now on the right track, so...
- Next year will be our year!
- Rinse and repeat
(Also read: NZ Warriors, with step three coinciding with Origin)
That's why I would still be very happy to see a coaching change this week, as a mid-season strong performance/turnaround has history with Ian Foster.
But given:
- Player sentiment
- Handling of the past circa three years by NZR
- Handling of the last four weeks by Mark Robinson
- The number of non-Chiefs fans who won't remember that cycle, and some Chiefs fans not ancient enough to remember that cycle
- And thus those who are now in the media/social media proclaiming that 'Foster can't be sacked after that one-off performance'!
... like @Frank I'm presuming Foster stays. Probably someone else in the support crew gets moved on.
And this thread may well resume life depending on how the Pumas and the Wallabies front.
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I think we are over the Front Row youth debate. Stick there now and move on.
no love for Joe Moody or Ofa? Both could be picks if they get back up to speed.
If required, yes, and maybe as squad backups but tbf Ofa has had how many good performances in black? Endless chances scattered with brainfarts and hot/cold days.
Moody has technical scrum skills but until a sign of revival in Super before being injured he had the impact of wet toilet paper.
Ross, Bower and DeGroot all show the new style of prop we need. -
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@Donsteppa @Frank I understand the concept of past behaviour being an indicator of future but trotting out stats that are 11-17 years old to back up a current change idea is possibly going a bit far isn't it?
My concern is that the pattern is not only past behaviour, i.e. this season with two wins from five.
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It seems like everyone has to fall on their swords except the top guy. His body of work merits firing going back to the Chiefs and through his introduction to the ABs. It’s boring but we have been highlighting our progressive weakness in the forwards for years. He has been in charge for nearly 3 years. They have one good game in which we do the hard graft and some want to get sentimental and throw him a lifeline based on supposed player feelings, a good result and most likely, nothing to do with Foster, Jason Ryan. Yes Robinson and the NZRFU are incompetent but what is his record? Why has it taken him so long to identify that you have to win the game in the forwards and show leadership to make the right changes. He has been dragged to this point by a succession of painful losses and NZ rugby losing our aura and stature. If he had any balls he would resign.
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Sorry if it's a repost:
Foster “There is no manual with this job. You’ve got to trust yourself, trust the people you work with, then you’ve got to be open to the different ideas you get, and put it into a plan. I'm a different coach to what I was 12 months ago. **Last year we won 12 out of 13 and no one was talking about us**. What this team learns is when things go wrong, you certainly hear it.”Am I missing something here?
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I think with the backing Foster has got from the players publicly over the last few weeks (I know what do they know, they not posting in here lol), even if there is genuine thoughts of replacing him isn't there a chance of alienating the players?
this is the issue - fozzie seems immensely popular with the players and it's a big part of why he got picked and why he's still around.
They need to scrap that thinking and take a ruthless results focused approach.
I'm hoping all that result did was allow fozzie back into the country without a lynch mob being there waiting for him at the airport. -
@WillieTheWaiter I agree. Hate to say it but screw the players. Their feelings towards Foster are not important. Maybe the relationship is too cozy and a new coach would kick them out of their comfort zone. So they install a new coach will they spit out the dummy and refuse to play? They are professionals. If a change in coach is warranted they will need to adapt.
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Foster just isn't a very good head coach. That is obvious, and has always been obvious since about 3 years after he got elevated above NPC level. Which was a long time ago. Talking mid 2000s.
He's not terrible, just not very good. In a competition with a spread of playing and coaching talent - He can get you in the 3rd to 6th zone, Which is where NZ currently are. So, performing at his mean expectation.
But. Mark Robinson has also showed and is showing himself to be a poor executive. So, I have no idea what will happen. But I have little doubt if the can is kicked down the road, based on hope his new assistants can drag him upwards - rather than his proven body of work - we will probably just be back here in about December, and then if kicked further, again back here in abut about July.
Just rip that plaster off.
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But I have little doubt if the can is kicked down the road, based on hope his new assistants can DRAG HIM UPWARDS - rather than his proven body of work - we will probably just be back here in about December, and then if kicked further, again back here in abut about July.
Just rip that plaster off.
Excellent word choices in bold.
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@WillieTheWaiter I agree. Hate to say it but screw the players. Their feelings towards Foster are not important. Maybe the relationship is too cozy and a new coach would kick them out of their comfort zone. So they install a new coach will they spit out the dummy and refuse to play? They are professionals. If a change in coach is warranted they will need to adapt.
A bit of a one dimensional view? Sure the players like him but, as you say, these guys are pros, many of them pros that play under the supposed messiah for NZ rugby, and I'm pretty certain that they are experienced enough to know if a coach is developing them or improving their play.
Not one ex-player has come out and talked about any failings Foster has. That interview posted with Conrad Smith (someone lauded as part of a players brains trust and a smart guy) laughs when confronted with questions about Foster's abilities.
What I can see is clearly different opinions about Foster between those who work with him and those that watch from a disconnected distance. That's not all down to being like-able..To me what that leaves is strategy and personnel decisions. Totally get the points that he has made some errors in both areas while trying to find solutions. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don't. Sometimes punters insist that 'so and so' would have been better but in the same breath want consistency in selection to build combinations.
There's a lot to take note of from players and ex-players. They are at the coalface and know what feels good and what doesn't. Going back to that interview with Conrad Smith, his view is that sticking with Havili/Rieko has been a great move. It is finally paying dividends and establishing a platform that can then be tweaked with through the bench to grow backups and other options. Our views are often far more knee-jerk than that and more 'kick that useless fluffybunny out and try this guy" -
@WillieTheWaiter said in Foster:
I think with the backing Foster has got from the players publicly over the last few weeks (I know what do they know, they not posting in here lol), even if there is genuine thoughts of replacing him isn't there a chance of alienating the players?
this is the issue - fozzie seems immensely popular with the players and it's a big part of why he got picked and why he's still around.
They need to scrap that thinking and take a ruthless results focused approach.
I'm hoping all that result did was allow fozzie back into the country without a lynch mob being there waiting for him at the airport.I would hope that NZ rugby public in general are intelligent enough to not even thinking words like lynch mob mate. All due respect to you and all, this is exactly the kind of thing that happened when Hart came home after WC exit to death threats etc written all over his luggage.
Not sure why anyone get's so upset. Dave Rennie is starting to cop shit in Aus as his results make Fosters look gold, but once again, the players etc seem to be in his corner.
There is some pretty shit stuff appearing about Bok coach too, Eddie Jones in England , it would seem we got some pretty shit coaches around world. -
@Crucial Possibly my view is one dimensional and yours and others are more nuanced. But the bottom line is the score board which, despite what the players or past players or coaches or Foster have to say, shows failure. Sometimes what is obvious and in front of our faces is more real than what a thousand words can say.
