Foster, Robertson etc
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@Crazy-Horse I think it all depends how we play.
While a loss should never be ok, if we had played well, but beaten by a better team, so be it.
Sure this Irish team is clearly pretty damned good, but the way we are playing, we dont even know how good they are, cos we are so poor.
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@mencey said in Foster must go:
This article says it all:
https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/07/17/hand-in-the-resignation-fozz-for-your-countrys-sake/For me just reads as another "Razor's the Savior" article by a bloke who thinks, somewhat arrogantly IMO, NZ players are a cut above the rest of the world when they clearly aren't anymore. Would have a bit more weight if he'd mentioned Robinson's U20 coaching fiasco in 2016 and while he might be a good choice, he doesn't walk on water.
No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go:
#1 seems solid enough
We don't seem to choose our top hooker ST (and if he is 1st, 2nd and 3rd are getting old, 4th i.e. the new 2nd is up in the air, and we don't play the top hooker, ST, according to the vast majority of pundits in a must-win series)*
#3 prop -who is that?
#4 and #5 are trying but 80 minutes without a headfart seems harder and harder
#6 is Shannon if Foster could get away with it
#7 is a guy more banged up than David Carradine in Death Race 2000, his place isn't secure but his main contender would rather play 8 (DP?)
#8 is Ardie who could be the best forward impact sub in world rugby but wants to play 8 eveven though he sometimes plays like a 7 still
#9 is Aaron Smith who doesn't seem to have two good matches in a row and is getting slower [ok, this is probably a bit unfair on Aaron]
#10 is god knows
##11 and #14 Reece seems to play well at wing this season and so does Jordie but he is really a 15
#12 is unclear still
#13 is maybe Rieko who still looks great..on the wing..but defending is better, it is just passing to support that still seems a work on...and kicking and,.
#15 is Jordie who may be a 12 but isn't kicking as accurately as he used to be apart from conversions ...Going into 2023, 1,9,11, 14, maybe 15, are the least contentious or unstable positions (maybe you add #8) ok 6/15 positions look relatively secure. Perhaps add Whitelock, 7/15. But given we are supposed to have a surfeit of great loosies our trio looks completely unsynchronised. Our use of the 10 (Richie or BB) is criminally ineffective and god knows what is the best midfield (or front row combo).
So I'd gather from that, most positions are up for grabs, don't have the best player, or have a player who should really retire or recuperate by 2023
*scratch that, must receive learnings-series
NB Foster has admitted previously that learnings have a limited shelf-life. Not sure how long they last though.Yeah I can't argue with any of that.Unless a new coach could resurrect a couple of the players who are fading.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@mencey said in Foster must go:
This article says it all:
https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/07/17/hand-in-the-resignation-fozz-for-your-countrys-sake/For me just reads as another "Razor's the Savior" article by a bloke who thinks, somewhat arrogantly IMO, NZ players are a cut above the rest of the world when they clearly aren't anymore. Would have a bit more weight if he'd mentioned Robinson's U20 coaching fiasco in 2016 and while he might be a good choice, he doesn't walk on water.
No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
The bloke hasn't had a chance in the HC job yet,but has won almost everything he has coached.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Won 2 NPC titles only coached Canterbury for 3 years,Super titles 6 I believe..
He has one thing going for him he wins titles and the percentage of wins is a lot higher than Fosters.
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow. -
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@mencey said in Foster must go:
This article says it all:
https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/07/17/hand-in-the-resignation-fozz-for-your-countrys-sake/For me just reads as another "Razor's the Savior" article by a bloke who thinks, somewhat arrogantly IMO, NZ players are a cut above the rest of the world when they clearly aren't anymore. Would have a bit more weight if he'd mentioned Robinson's U20 coaching fiasco in 2016 and while he might be a good choice, he doesn't walk on water.
No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
The bloke hasn't had a chance in the HC job yet,but has won almost everything he has coached.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Won 2 NPC titles only coached Canterbury for 3 years,Super titles 6 I believe..
He has one thing going for him he wins titles and the percentage of wins is a lot higher than Fosters.
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow.I also wouldn't ever bag someone on their U20 record. Those sides come together last minute and you have very little control.
Cron had the Australia U20s in Georgia, and they didn't win - they had to deal with kit not showing up at all, last minute player withdrawals because provinces matter more apparently , and close losses when you have kids freeze in the headlights.
Nz setup might be better, but there is still a lottery element to it
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@Chris Robertson is the leading contender, and I'd pick him to try and turn the ship around. He's got the best record of available people, and should get the keys. He's not zero risk though, I'd still like to see him succeed in a different environment. Sir Graham was right, but we're out of options
Like Deans, he's really only coached in a controlled healthy environment. Deans was reasonably toxic at the top level with Mitchell despite his success with the Crusaders.
It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.
Our biggest export seems to be coaches now, and rugby IP
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@nzzp said in Foster must go:
We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.
Keep Ryan and Coventry in the country at all costs!
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@nzzp said in Foster must go:
@Chris Robertson is the leading contender, and I'd pick him to try and turn the ship around. He's got the best record of available people, and should get the keys. He's not zero risk though, I'd still like to see him succeed in a different environment. Sir Graham was right, but we're out of options
Like Deans, he's really only coached in a controlled healthy environment. Deans was reasonably toxic at the top level with Mitchell despite his success with the Crusaders.
It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.
Our biggest export seems to be coaches now, and rugby IP
His players seem to love him. He comes across as a very real character, more open, a player's coach. I hope he gets his chance shortly and I hope his style translates, for all our sakes
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@nzzp said in Foster must go:
It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.
is this self perpetuating by the type of play and players we have been selecting for the past 4 or 5 years and how we have been playign them?
Possibly become lazy, when almost all our tighties were superior in skill to almost any counterpart...maybe the success of BR & SW stunted the growth there, we stopped looking for ball runners in our front row, which to me has been a huge issue for BR & SW shouldering more load.
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@nzzp said in Foster must go:
@Chris Robertson is the leading contender, and I'd pick him to try and turn the ship around. He's got the best record of available people, and should get the keys. He's not zero risk though, I'd still like to see him succeed in a different environment. Sir Graham was right, but we're out of options
Like Deans, he's really only coached in a controlled healthy environment. Deans was reasonably toxic at the top level with Mitchell despite his success with the Crusaders.
It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.
Our biggest export seems to be coaches now, and rugby IP
Yes I did mention I agreed it goes deeper than the coach but it’s a start.
Anyone coming in to replace Foster has risk because it could be a bigger mess than we can imagine. -
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@nzzp said in Foster must go:
@Chris Robertson is the leading contender, and I'd pick him to try and turn the ship around. He's got the best record of available people, and should get the keys. He's not zero risk though, I'd still like to see him succeed in a different environment. Sir Graham was right, but we're out of options
Like Deans, he's really only coached in a controlled healthy environment. Deans was reasonably toxic at the top level with Mitchell despite his success with the Crusaders.
It's also a fair point that the problem goes deeper than the coach. We are not producing the quality of player we used to, and others are. This is particularly evident in the tight forwards. Addressing that is critical for NZ rugby over the next few years. We have to innovate and get back to the front of the pack.
Our biggest export seems to be coaches now, and rugby IP
Yes I did mention I agreed it goes deeper than the coach but it’s a start.
Anyone coming in to replace Foster has risk because it could be a bigger mess than we can imagine.There are few options. All of the other contenders are contracted to other countries until after 2023. Unless the NZRFU risk throwing Gatland Schmidt and Fozz together
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@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on. -
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble
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@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble
Yep me too
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@voodoo said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@mencey said in Foster must go:
This article says it all:
https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/07/17/hand-in-the-resignation-fozz-for-your-countrys-sake/For me just reads as another "Razor's the Savior" article by a bloke who thinks, somewhat arrogantly IMO, NZ players are a cut above the rest of the world when they clearly aren't anymore. Would have a bit more weight if he'd mentioned Robinson's U20 coaching fiasco in 2016 and while he might be a good choice, he doesn't walk on water.
No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
The bloke hasn't had a chance in the HC job yet,but has won almost everything he has coached.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Won 2 NPC titles only coached Canterbury for 3 years,Super titles 6 I believe..
He has one thing going for him he wins titles and the percentage of wins is a lot higher than Fosters.
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow.I also wouldn't ever bag someone on their U20 record. Those sides come together last minute and you have very little control.
Cron had the Australia U20s in Georgia, and they didn't win - they had to deal with kit not showing up at all, last minute player withdrawals because provinces matter more apparently, and close losses when you have kids freeze in the headlights.
Nz setup might be better, but there is still a lottery element to it
Staggering that any U20 coach has to put up with that. U20 teams are key to the development of Test players in France and other countries and treated accordingly. Has to be for NZ as well.
If the sort of thing you've posted is the main reason for Razor's 2016 NZ U20 being dumped out of the pool stage in the 2016 U20 tournament, then it's an excellent example of a root cause problem which needs to be fixed. And it may take some time for the results to show up in AB results
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@Chris said in Foster must go:
@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble
Yep me too
And I'm no Razor fan boy. But his record commands respect. Seems like a player's coach
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@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble
Yep me too
And I'm no Razor fan boy. But his record commands respect. Seems like a player's coach
It doesn't have to be Razor just clear out this clown show.
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@Chris said in Foster must go:
@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Chris said in Foster must go:
Mate your post to me sounds like another chance to put down Robertson.
No, I'm commenting on the article which @mency kindly posted which pushes the idea that all the problems can be fixed at a stroke by signing a contract with one person. Because that is what the article is saying.
Sure didn't have a good 2016 U/20 but that can be down to who comes through in what year.He won it in 2015 one of the 2 years he coached the u/20s.
Then it would have been better if the author had made it clear Robinson has a 50% success rate at international level, don't you think?
As for addressing other issues besides coaching yep agree, but starting with a decent coach is a step forward hopefully the rest will follow
A new coach is part of the solution but to just hopefully think the rest will simply follow and deeper problems don't need looking at just doesn't cut it in the real world. I would suggest it's that type of thinking which has got us into the mess we're in.
I said hopefully will follow.
It’s better than this shit show carrying on.If we stay this course more pain will surely follow. I'm ready to gamble
Yep me too
And I'm no Razor fan boy. But his record commands respect. Seems like a player's coach
It doesn't have to be Razor just clear out this clown show.
He deserves the opportunity. His longterm future in the job should not be based purely on results from this year. I just need to see systemic improvement
