The Current State of Rugby
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I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
@NTA said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Nepia yeah I think it should be amended:
- If your maul goes backwards, use it
- If your maul stops, use it
Otherwise free kick to the defending team
The second bite / five second restart brought mauls back, and now they're havin' a larf.
Worse still is that the mauls become more of a weapon if you stop but absorb pressure from defence then shift your own pressure to the weakest spot. Once that second go starts the defence has to detach and scramble.
Mauls are way too heavily ruled toward the attacking side.the maul having the advantages it does has a flow on effect to teams basing their whole method of gaining points through it. play territory, and wait for penalties to kick to the corner
Super effective rugby but terrible viewing.
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@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
The TMO situation has made rugby as poor a spectacle as I can remember for a long time
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@barbarian said in The Current State of Rugby:
I think the core issue has to be reducing time where the ball is not in play.
Go back and watch games from the turn of the century and I'd argue it's where rugby was at its peak. Professionalism made for better skills and speed, but the shackles of amateurism hadn't been fully thrown off. One thing that you notice is the speed at which they packed scrums, formed lineouts and took kicks.
Less downtime led to more tired players in the final 20 and a more entertaining game.
I'm surprised World Rugby hasn't tried to fix this as in most cases it doesn't compromise on safety. Speed up players getting to scrums and lineouts. Reduce the time for injuries - either you are up and back or you are off the field. I find the refs I like more do understand this and hurry the players up.
And of course the TM fucking O. Refs need to make quicker decisions and if there is doubt they can reduce the on-field sanction and leave it for the judiciary.
It won't solve all the problems but it will solve some and I do think it's easily achievable.
agreed, even in the late 90's the front rows were often semi engaged before their locks were in....its ironic we've slowed things down, allow everyone to get ready etc in an attempt to make things safer...but really it just means we have 8 guys that know exactly when to throw their full weight into the other 8 guys doing the same thing, i think we've made the contact much bigger and arguably more dangerous
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@Kiwiwomble I think a lot of it is just a natural evolution as players got bigger and stronger.
Of course you will have more power in your scrum if you are lower. You put Taniela Tupou up against Bill Young and I shudder at what might happen now.
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@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
@barbarian player safety will always trump everything with scrums. And teams will play the "player safety" card all day to get themselves in to their scrum machine set. Look how many times they fucking stand up because someone isn't "comfortable"
throw in the terrible slow cadence from the ref
lineouts should be fixable with a free kick though
it cracks me up that rugby fans love to take shots at the "committee meetings between plays" of NFL when rugby is hardly any better at times.
The TMO situation has made rugby as poor a spectacle as I can remember for a long time
We got what we deserved with all the whinging about ref mistakes.
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Speaking with people at work who you would consider more casual fans, lots of them said they just turned the game off last weekend as it was boring waiting for the TMO pouring over every play looking for indiscretions as well as all the other stoppages in play. And they are right, honestly I tune out for long periods of time when the TMO is involved, or an Irish player has again gone down and a medic is on the field attending to him while everyone just stands around doing nothing.
Watching Origin last night, the difference was stark in terms of the pace of the game. Their TMO took 1 - 2 quick looks at anything referred, made the decision and the game went on. Incidents of foul play were put on report, and the player can be punished after the fact without ruining the spectacle. Yeah they probably don't do enough to protect player welfare, especially in Origin, but they get a lot right in terms of keeping the game moving at speed. It was a far more enjoyable game to watch.
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The TMO stuff would be more bearable if it wasn't for all the other time wasting. Teams having huddles then walking slowly to lineouts? Fuck right off. Free kick them. Not ready to pack down for a scrum in 10 seconds? Free kick. Awarded a penalty? Ref to make the mark and decision made within 5 seconds. Execution other than kick at goal within next 5.
Refs need the balls to speed things up. It totally erodes the respect in them when you hear them pleading for teams to speed up and the teams just ignore them.
I get that no ref wants to be the first but a clear message that it will be done and then no one can argue about it.
I don't know the figures but the Māori game the other night was nearly 2 hours for 2x rugby halves and a halftime break (which should revert to 10 minutes) yet the ball was probably in play for a total of 20 odd minutes.
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rugby's TMO problem is also the process
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
the NRL has the benefit of the bunker. on centralised ref making the call looking at multiple angles and speeds at the same time (not what you see on TV) and making the ruling. way faster
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@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
Plus the speaking in code ("Can I show you another angle", "Have you considered the actions of the ball carrier" etc)
Personally I would prefer the TMO to make the call themselves. Their career can live and die on their judgment. Over time good TMO's will rise to the top.
The decisions by committee don't lead to more accurate outcomes and it takes time.
Also I think part of this is arse covering. If all the officials are participate in the decision then none of the refs are ultimately responsible
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@Duluth said in The Current State of Rugby:
@mariner4life said in The Current State of Rugby:
because it has decided the onfield ref ultimately makes the determination, we have the farce of the 3 onfield refs standing around looking at the big screen, angle by angle, and different speeds
Plus the speaking in code ("Can I show you another angle", "Have you considered the actions of the ball carrier" etc)
Personally I would prefer the TMO to make the call themselves. Their career can live and die on their judgment. Over time good TMO's will rise to the top.
The decisions by committee don't lead to more accurate outcomes and it takes time.
Also I think part of this is arse covering. If all the officials are participate in the decision then none of the refs are ultimately responsible
It used to work like that and the worst refs became TMOs. There were some absolute shockers. Guys with zero feel for the game or common sense were making appalling decisions.
Evidence : George Ayoub and/or Shaun Veldsman
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@mariner4life Yeah the bunker really is so much faster to make crucial decision. 2-3 replays tops and decision made.
The pace and intensity of SOO last night was so much higher than anything I've seen in rugby this year. Incredible really. Not a flattering juxtaposition to the weekend.
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
The TMO stuff would be more bearable if it wasn't for all the other time wasting. Teams having huddles then walking slowly to lineouts? Fuck right off. Free kick them. Not ready to pack down for a scrum in 10 seconds? Free kick. Awarded a penalty? Ref to make the mark and decision made within 5 seconds. Execution other than kick at goal within next 5.
Refs need the balls to speed things up. It totally erodes the respect in them when you hear them pleading for teams to speed up and the teams just ignore them.
I get that no ref wants to be the first but a clear message that it will be done and then no one can argue about it.
I don't know the figures but the Māori game the other night was nearly 2 hours for 2x rugby halves and a halftime break (which should revert to 10 minutes) yet the ball was probably in play for a total of 20 odd minutes.
The intention to speed the game up needs to come from WR. And like our union and many others, they aren't showing much leadership right now. What job should they have that's more important than protecting and growing the popularity of the game?
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@NTA but the RWC is still WRs main money spinner - and the RWC is nothing without NZ, Aus and SA.
Be crazy for them to ignore a drop off in interest in the the SH due to the Home Nations (perplexing) support of slow rugby.
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@canefan said in The Current State of Rugby:
@pakman hit the nail on the head
Or not
That was a thinly veiled pat on the back from Shaun.
France didn't get any YC or RC because I coached them to approach the tackle and ruck situation differently from previous seasons.
I'll die on this hill.
Aim lower
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@chimoaus said in The Current State of Rugby:
@reprobate said in The Current State of Rugby:
@gibbon-rib said in The Current State of Rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in The Current State of Rugby:
I'm a big fan of bringing back substitutions for injuries only
Define injury
You don't have to define it, you just have to limit the number of subs allowed. full size bench, but only 3 subs allowed for the game, nominally for injury. Then you can't rort the system that much.
I have to say having been a reserve in rep rugby as a teenager where you only came on for injury were some of the worst moments of my rugby playing days. I was stoked to have made the rep team, trained etc. But I was not good enough to make the starting side. We travelled playing other rep sides and I got maybe 5-10 minutes total in all the games. The other 4+ hours or so was standing in the cold on the sideline with all my gear on doing nothing.
Being a reserve is tough and I can't help but feel for players under this system getting very little game time at all.
Institute it only at the elite level
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@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
The TMO stuff would be more bearable if it wasn't for all the other time wasting. Teams having huddles then walking slowly to lineouts? Fuck right off. Free kick them. Not ready to pack down for a scrum in 10 seconds? Free kick. Awarded a penalty? Ref to make the mark and decision made within 5 seconds. Execution other than kick at goal within next 5.
Refs need the balls to speed things up. It totally erodes the respect in them when you hear them pleading for teams to speed up and the teams just ignore them.
I get that no ref wants to be the first but a clear message that it will be done and then no one can argue about it.
I don't know the figures but the Māori game the other night was nearly 2 hours for 2x rugby halves and a halftime break (which should revert to 10 minutes) yet the ball was probably in play for a total of 20 odd minutes.
Only issue being - it's both teams doing this stuff, regardless of if it's their ball or not. How do you decide who to free kick?
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@Bones said in The Current State of Rugby:
@Crucial said in The Current State of Rugby:
The TMO stuff would be more bearable if it wasn't for all the other time wasting. Teams having huddles then walking slowly to lineouts? Fuck right off. Free kick them. Not ready to pack down for a scrum in 10 seconds? Free kick. Awarded a penalty? Ref to make the mark and decision made within 5 seconds. Execution other than kick at goal within next 5.
Refs need the balls to speed things up. It totally erodes the respect in them when you hear them pleading for teams to speed up and the teams just ignore them.
I get that no ref wants to be the first but a clear message that it will be done and then no one can argue about it.
I don't know the figures but the Māori game the other night was nearly 2 hours for 2x rugby halves and a halftime break (which should revert to 10 minutes) yet the ball was probably in play for a total of 20 odd minutes.
Only issue being - it's both teams doing this stuff, regardless of if it's their ball or not. How do you decide who to free kick?
Team not in possession.
