Super Rugby 2022
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@nzzp said in Super Rugby 2022:
@mariner4life NRL is tribal. Rugby doesn't have that as far as I can tell. Would love to hear @NTA take on it
@mariner4life said in Super Rugby 2022:
not in Aus (except at club level)
And those clubs are so fucking small they barely count. Let's look at what constitutes a "club" in NRL or AFL land.
AFL/NRL: massive entities with corporate-level clubs (pokies - "casino" to you eastern staters), backing a squad of well-paid guys as well as some age squads to assist their development. Play out of stadiums they hire and have long given up any hope of owning, because they're smart enough to avoid white elephants.
Club Rugby: tiny tinpot dictatorships trying to run 4 Grades + 3 Colts squads, most of whom are the meal ticket for First XV. Play out of a glorified cowshed, and often are in hock to another entity (Council, local RSL or other Club) because they can't balance the books to save themselves.
There are 10 Premier Rugby clubs in Sydney, and 1 coming down from Newcastle, in the current competition.
There are 50 Suburban clubs in Sydney (with 1-6 teams each depending on division), playing First Grade the same time of a Saturday afternoon as those Premier clubs. They don't really support any of those Premier Clubs, and wouldn't attend anyway because Firsts are playing their biggest rival today, and all the lower grades will get on the cans and shout abuse to support the boys.
Premier Rugby clubs here in Sydney complained that the NRC wasn't tribal enough, but in their navel-gazing fails to illustrate just how shit they are in trying to bring their tribalism to the wider rugby audience. Making the top clubs in Sydney/Brisbane/ACT/etc the participants in the national club competition would deliver much the same result, but might actually be the only way to get them to stop being fucking children about it.
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@Bovidae said in Super Rugby 2022:
I don't see NZR abandoning their top-down approach to rugby. The ABs are their cash cow and everything else flows from that. The NPC is now what club rugby was in the 1980s and 1990s - a feeder competition. However, for many of us, that is still where our loyalty and passion is.
I've said this many times before, but the current SR salary cap is pointless and irrelevant if you aren't including a player's AB salary in it. Hypothetically, if you are on a $1M annual salary, being in the lowest SR salary band is not really a big sacrifice.
agree with all of this
for us, as the paying spectators, this is all just a fun exercise of what kind of structure we can come up with that would make a great sporting competition
The NZRU are never going to change their approach. They want the best players in the country spread between as few teams as possible as that is best for the ABs. They want Super rugby in close to its current format as that is best for the ABs. The rest they couldn't give a fuck about, as it's small money compared to the ABs. The NPC is a way to find new young players, and give the pros something to do for 4 months to justify their salary.
And, they know we'll keep watching.
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2022:
You know the thing that amuses me a little. We keep hearing how the final of Super AU was a stunning success a couple of years back , and it was, but if anyone cares to recall the viewing figures for the rest of that year was not very bloody good, I think the major semi was good, but then all the next best figures were actually cross over matches. I know it's wonderful to build a comp on the viewing of one or two games, but by geez they would need to be big money pullers to pay for another 3-5 teams that Hamish is saying RA will come up with. Even look at this year, what were the Tahs biggest crowds? Against a couple of kiwi teams. What were Rebels crowds like? Pretty poor , and that will be standard of game (at most) if Aus rugby is diluted by adding all these extra teams, because I doubt there will be too many good teams when spread between 8-10 teams.
The MARC I thought was a decent formula, but it was unsustainable with Super Rugby still happening.
I personally don’t think the ARU cares that it will be the equivalent of the NSL to start out with and lose money, but they will have an eye to turning it into the A-League and beyond. Super Rugby doesn’t work for OZ for a host of reasons and the question is can they hold fire and experience the pain before it starts to reap the financial reward. That’s what soccer had to do here.
The “good teams” will all be relative though because you aren’t comparing them to the Crusaders or Blues or Chiefs. There are ways to spread the talent.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby 2022:
You know the thing that amuses me a little. We keep hearing how the final of Super AU was a stunning success a couple of years back , and it was, but if anyone cares to recall the viewing figures for the rest of that year was not very bloody good, I think the major semi was good, but then all the next best figures were actually cross over matches. I know it's wonderful to build a comp on the viewing of one or two games, but by geez they would need to be big money pullers to pay for another 3-5 teams that Hamish is saying RA will come up with. Even look at this year, what were the Tahs biggest crowds? Against a couple of kiwi teams. What were Rebels crowds like? Pretty poor , and that will be standard of game (at most) if Aus rugby is diluted by adding all these extra teams, because I doubt there will be too many good teams when spread between 8-10 teams.
The MARC I thought was a decent formula, but it was unsustainable with Super Rugby still happening.
I personally don’t think the ARU cares that it will be the equivalent of the NSL to start out with and lose money, but they will have an eye to turning it into the A-League and beyond. Super Rugby doesn’t work for OZ for a host of reasons and the question is can they hold fire and experience the pain before it starts to reap the financial reward. That’s what soccer had to do here.
The “good teams” will all be relative though because you aren’t comparing them to the Crusaders or Blues or Chiefs. There are ways to spread the talent.
Yep you can spread the talent, it's called diluting the comp! Look I understand that RA will always look at comp etc, but I not sure if diluting any comp works in long run. I tell you who will be rubbing hands together, would be NRL. RA is seemingly putting a lot of faith in how much profit they will have when Lions tour and WC, but the profit from those will still only be about what NRL gets in tv deals each year. Just think RA is hoping a comp will be very successful by taking away Rugby's point of difference ,International flavour.
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If you'd allow All Blacks to play in Japan, the Japanese team(s) in Super Rugby would sign the maximum allowed number of ABs and deprive NZ franchises of their best players. Is that what you want as a supporter of your SR franchise? Seeing your best players leave? I don't.
Also, including ABs salaries in the salary cap would punish teams that develop their players into All Blacks. Why would the Blues and Crusaders bother putting much time, money and effort in making their players the best of the country, only to be forced to tell some of them to go play somewhere else because they can't sign them due to their salary being too high.
If you want to do something about difference in number of All Blacks between NZ franchises, improve the development of players at the franchises with low number of ABs. Improve the organisation and coaching. Facilitate player identification and recruitment.
When the Blues were at a low point, organisations wise, which translated into years of bad performances, NZ Rugby bought a stake in the Blues, did a big clean-out of management, hired better coaches and we now see the positive effects of that. We all know that the Hurricanes' organisation needs a deep-clean; need better coaches from age grade to SR level; need a second academy in Napier where there's more talent that slips through the net than plankton through tuna fishing nets (yes, I'm exaggerating, but you get my point). The Highlanders sure can use some help.
If you want to even things up, don't put the disincentives where things are going well. Add incentives where it's not going well.
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2022:
Also, including ABs salaries in the salary cap would punish teams that develop their players into All Blacks. Why would the Blues and Crusaders bother putting much time, money and effort in making their players the best of the country, only to be forced to tell some of them to go play somewhere else because they can't sign them due to their salary being too high.
Welcome to the NFL. Players want to get paid. Player movemnts are common.
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2022:
Why would the Blues and Crusaders bother putting much time, money and effort in making their players the best of the country
because that's how you win
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@mariner4life Not if you have to let them go to another team.
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2022:
If you'd allow All Blacks to play in Japan, the Japanese team(s) in Super Rugby would sign the maximum allowed number of ABs and deprive NZ franchises of their best players. Is that what you want as a supporter of your SR franchise? Seeing your best players leave? I don't.
i know im in the minority but i dont think i care
- i honestly believe that we'd bring through new guys to replace the majority
- my level of enjoyment isn't dependant on the skill level, i enjoy watching my club play as much as the Highlanders...maybe more
- i think in the long run the whole evel of the comp will raise, i dont agree siloing the best talent in 2-3 super teams raises the number of top players, if anything it might stop young guys coming through
i know most dont agree.....please be gentle
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2022:
Also, including ABs salaries in the salary cap would punish teams that develop their players into All Blacks. Why would the Blues and Crusaders bother putting much time, money and effort in making their players the best of the country, only to be forced to tell some of them to go play somewhere else because they can't sign them due to their salary being too high.
That's not how a true salary cap can work.
(1) Make the bulk of a players salary related to playing for their SR team, like it is in the NRL, football, etc. Playing for the ABs is the cherry on the top, where a player gets assembly fees and match payments.
(2) Increase the SR salary cap to reflect (1).
(3) Players won't be forced to move, but may have to take a lower salary to fit within the cap. That's a personal choice. -
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Winger said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial Test rugby still makes the big money. So hopefully SA don't join the 6 nations and leave us without a key team. That might be a blow we can't recover from.
And maybe NZR didn't think of this outcome when they forced SA to leave. Something that seems to have worked out well for SA. As they had 2 teams in the final.
I just don't think NZ can do it alone. Maybe it could work with say more teams (say 8 ) but can NZ ever come up with a structure to ensure even teams. I doubt it. And could be afford 8 teams. I don't think so. So we need Aust. But Aust don't want to be in a competition that their teams never win.
It seems to be a situation that has no easy solution.
Except to change other factors. Either allow players to play anywhere in Super and still be eligible for national sides or look for different partners. I think it needs to be both.
agreed, this would have been good when we had the sunwolves, let some of those guys get some japanese money
Lol you realise they were subsidized for the first few years by SANZAR, making massive losses, and when the JRU refused to cover the subsidy after SANZAR subsidy deal had finished was why they got cut? There is no money from Japan from an SR team, unless you somehow get the existing teams on board.
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Bovidae I can see that leading to ABs assembly fees and match payments being negotiated to a higher level.
isn't that a good thing?
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@Machpants said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Winger said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial Test rugby still makes the big money. So hopefully SA don't join the 6 nations and leave us without a key team. That might be a blow we can't recover from.
And maybe NZR didn't think of this outcome when they forced SA to leave. Something that seems to have worked out well for SA. As they had 2 teams in the final.
I just don't think NZ can do it alone. Maybe it could work with say more teams (say 8 ) but can NZ ever come up with a structure to ensure even teams. I doubt it. And could be afford 8 teams. I don't think so. So we need Aust. But Aust don't want to be in a competition that their teams never win.
It seems to be a situation that has no easy solution.
Except to change other factors. Either allow players to play anywhere in Super and still be eligible for national sides or look for different partners. I think it needs to be both.
agreed, this would have been good when we had the sunwolves, let some of those guys get some japanese money
Lol you realise they were subsidized for the first few years by SANZAR, making massive losses, and when the JRU refused to cover the subsidy after SANZAR subsidy deal had finished was why they got cut? There is no money from Japan from an SR team, unless you somehow get the existing teams on board.
yes, i am aware, wasn't meaning exactly how it was, more holistically when there was a japanese team guys could have gone and played for and just make changes to how theyre were financed
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@mariner4life Yes, if it helps players to stay at the franchise where they really want to play, instead of being forced to move to another franchise because of the salary cap.
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@Stargazer said in Super Rugby 2022:
@mariner4life Yes, if it helps players to stay at the franchise where they really want to play, instead of being forced to move to another franchise because of the salary cap.
they are not forced to move anywhere. They can take a cut to stay. Successful teams in capped sports all over the world have been able to do that
But if they want top dollar, and their current team is unable to offer it, then they can absolutely also choose to leave.
That's how contracting works
The current system is dumb.
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@Dan54 but if it’s a new comp then it’s not really diluting because season 1 will be the starting point.
You can’t really compare it to Super rugby because the model will be very different.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Dan54 but if it’s a new comp then it’s not really diluting because season 1 will be the starting point.
You can’t really compare it to Super rugby because the model will be very different.
Yep but even starting a comp that is diluting teams that were in last comp seems extremely strange to me, usually it's to make all stronger. 10 teams would be very similat to NRC that was not successful at all, and take my word for it I went to enough of those games.
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@Winger said in Super Rugby 2022:
@Crucial Test rugby still makes the big money. So hopefully SA don't join the 6 nations and leave us without a key team. That might be a blow we can't recover from.
And maybe NZR didn't think of this outcome when they forced SA to leave. Something that seems to have worked out well for SA. As they had 2 teams in the final.
I just don't think NZ can do it alone. Maybe it could work with say more teams (say 8 ) but can NZ ever come up with a structure to ensure even teams. I doubt it. And could be afford 8 teams. I don't think so. So we need Aust. But Aust don't want to be in a competition that their teams never win.
It seems to be a situation that has no easy solution.
This has worked out well for SA, but how is it working out for the European teams? Genuine question here.
If the SA teams keep winning, how happy will the European clubs bet to have the SA teams in their comp and having to travel significant distances (relatively speaking) just to be beaten.
I guess this might not be such a big deal if the Saffas are bringing lots of TV money etc. Do we know if this is the case?
