2022 Black Ferns
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@antipodean said in 2022 Black Ferns:
@machpants said in 2022 Black Ferns:
Mentioned not very often in the articles is the recommendation that players need to be able to take criticism as pro/high performance athletes. You wonder how much of it is a disconnect between the harshness of pro vs the niceness of women’s rugby. All my female rugby playing mates just love the touchy feely-ness of their teams. They’re nothing like a high performance arena, from my experience in high performance military
In my experience there's a near complete lack of piss taking in women's rugby - they're unbelievably supportive. I've also had to explain to some men who have obviously never been in high performance/ stress environments that someone giving you shit isn't a fluffybunny. If they're not teasing you they don't care.
Exactly, it’s like Munster in the good old days deciding to play ‘A good heart these days is hard to find’ to the player who just got diagnosed with a heart defect, it’s craic!
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@machpants said in 2022 Black Ferns:
Mentioned not very often in the articles is the recommendation that players need to be able to take criticism as pro/high performance athletes. You wonder how much of it is a disconnect between the harshness of pro vs the niceness of women’s rugby. All my female rugby playing mates just love the touchy feely-ness of their teams. They’re nothing like a high performance arena, from my experience in high performance military
Well, that's a bit of a no brainer then. Women's rugby has only just started on the path to pro/hp rugby and still isn't full-time pro.
@antipodean said in 2022 Black Ferns:In my experience there's a near complete lack of piss taking in women's rugby - they're unbelievably supportive. I've also had to explain to some men who have obviously never been in high performance/ stress environments that someone giving you shit isn't a fluffybunny. If they're not teasing you they don't care.
That's a male perspective. Why would it be the same for women's rugby? Women are wired differently. Also depends on what your definition of "piss taking" and "teasing" is, I guess. And who is doing the "piss taking" towards whom.
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@stargazer said in 2022 Black Ferns:
@machpants said in 2022 Black Ferns:
Mentioned not very often in the articles is the recommendation that players need to be able to take criticism as pro/high performance athletes. You wonder how much of it is a disconnect between the harshness of pro vs the niceness of women’s rugby. All my female rugby playing mates just love the touchy feely-ness of their teams. They’re nothing like a high performance arena, from my experience in high performance military
Well, that's a bit of a no brainer then. Women's rugby has only just started on the path to pro/hp rugby and still isn't full-time pro.
Chicken or the egg?
@antipodean said in 2022 Black Ferns:
In my experience there's a near complete lack of piss taking in women's rugby - they're unbelievably supportive. I've also had to explain to some men who have obviously never been in high performance/ stress environments that someone giving you shit isn't a fluffybunny. If they're not teasing you they don't care.
That's a male perspective. Why would it be the same for women's rugby? Women are wired differently. Also depends on what your definition of "piss taking" and "teasing" is, I guess. And who is doing the "piss taking" towards whom.
Friends/ mates ribbing each other use truth and humour, otherwise the statement wouldn't land and it wouldn't be taken in good nature. It would be a baseless or intensely personal attack intended to hurt. Doing it in this manner is a good way to bond and to critique/ criticise in a supportive environment.
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@bovidae Isn't this a repeat of what happened before one of the previous (maybe even the last) Women's RWC? I recall the head coach stepping up in the year of the WRWC; wasn't that how Moore got the gig?
Edit: yep, found it. He replaced Greg Smith who was banned for referee abuse.
Greg Smith quits Black Ferns
The head coach of the New Zealand women's rugby team Greg Smith has resigned after serving a ban for abusing match officials.
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@stargazer Yeah, Greg Smith was originally named as the coach. His issues were outside of the Black Ferns environment (verbal abuse of a ref in Waikato club rugby IIRC).
I see Bunting has been mentioned as a possible candidate. Whoever gets the position will have some challenges.
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I haven't read the report, just this article. What a mess to clean up, with a home world cup only months away
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@stargazer said in 2022 Black Ferns:
@bovidae Yep, definitely difficult to take over this late, but Bunting has a great track record. And he's got the assistance of Smith and maybe Henry.
After his work rebuilding the 7s team he is an excellent choice. The article suggests that Moore still had support from some of the players. It sounds much like the way that the women's Black sticks coach got pushed out
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I have read the report and do have some sympathy for Moore.
He was seemingly done in by treating amateurs like pros without realising that neither they, nor the management had geared the players up that way.
One of the reasons Bunting has been sucessfull is that he openly recognised that he was the outlier. The male in the female space and went out of his way to have support in place and to have the trust of the players that he understood his limitations in areas.
Like everything that causes conflict communication is the most important thing and when that isn't clear, trusted and understood then problems can fester through misunderstandings.
My guess is that Moore is a decent bloke that wouldn't dream of deliberately hurting anyone but did so through ommission and a failure of his superiors to put the right structures in place.As for the RWC we will still go in way underprepared and with players playing a style from 4 years ago which has been superseded by other countries.
Best we can hope is for some unity and determination getting us into a punchers chance. -
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@canefan said in 2022 Black Ferns:
@crucial funny thing is, he'd been coach for years, won the RWC as well. Covid19 probably didn't help
Glossing over the cracks though. No one else in the world put any effort into Women's Rugby or were just forming seriously so our record was, in part, due to the weakness of others.
But yes, perfect storm brought things to a head. We hadn't been playing at all so development of new players hadn't happened and existing ones had stagnated. I would say that lead to pressure on the coaching staff who resorted to upping the pressure on players, some of whom didn't feel valued because of the poor communication set up with management etc.
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Moore and co have bled plenty of new players the last few years, but they weren't able to test themselves against the rest of the world until last year's Northern Tour. The lack of tests has been a big factor.
NZR also hasn't kept up with developments overseas, particularly England and France in terms of professionalisation.
This year's SR Aupiki was too little, too late.
The contracting of Black Ferns was minimalistic, with players still needing full time or multiple part-time jobs to survive.
That half-hearted approach just doesn't work anymore.Then there's the big difference:
England and France etc, have a six nations. We only have two annual games against Australia (which didn't go ahead during Covid, unlike Bledisloe).This year's Super Series (including USA and Canada) still hasn't been confirmed. Is it going to happen? The USA will be a good opponent, Australia reasonable, but I understand Canada has fallen off the cliff. Maybe they should also include Fijiana, who are on the rise (see also Super W in Australia). This Super Series won't offer opposition as strong as England and France, but it's better than nothing at all. If the Super Series isn't going ahead, they should at least invite Fijiana, to get a three nations tournament, in addition to the two Laurie O'Reilly tests.
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This just in: bringing Smith Henry and Cron into the environment to help sn't right because they are white, male and old.
Frankly, of all the things you could pick on, those three are some of the best rugby brains on the planet. Pair them with up and coming coaches if you want, but criticizing them is crazy
Lack of accountability in Black Ferns saga leaves sour taste
Comment - New Zealand Rugby's Black Ferns review has left a feeling that women's rugby isn't highly valued at all, writes Hamish Bidwell.
