All Blacks 2021
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life Power lock partnered with a rotation of Whitelock and Retallick each week. Barrett on the bench. Ioane + Jacobsen/Sotutu/Robinson in the loose forwards to add two lineout options. Sorted, as long as we can develop that power lock.
ah, we are picking two 7s for as long as the current guys are in charge mate. Savea is the best #8 in the world apparently...
So power lock, two opensides, and a hooker who can't throw. Prepare to spend a LOT of time in your own half.
That sounds about right for a gameplan based on counter attack.
that's been working wonderfully, and is soooo hard to counter
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
One thing we don't seem to value in NZ at the moment is workmanlike locks. Now, I'm going to use a Magpies example, but that's just the one I know, other provinces likely have similar examples that they can cut and paste in.
Tom Parson's has never secured a Super contract (he's finally got an injury replacement one now) despite being a stand out, workman like, lock in the NPC for years now. Maybe, he's not up to Super level, but we don't know. Bryn Evans came back from the UK and was bloody good for the Highlanders, yet Parsons has definitely been the best of the Magpies locks while Evans has been back.
FYI - I'm not suggesting him for higher honours or anything, just musing on the closed shop for Super rugby contracts sometimes.
my personal feeling on why we opt for "experience" rather than developing newer players is the super season is too short...so there is too much riding on each game. the rugby season itself is long but thats because we run two competitions (plus internations)
TBF, Parson's seems to miss out to young guys more so than experienced guys (despite my Evans example).
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@nepia maybe hes just a dick?
as i say, really just how i see the Highlanders approach over the last few years, pretty much ever position needs some old journeyman who may never be an all black but also wont have a brain fart when under pressure
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
We could just import them while their country becomes a failed state.
ah yes, teh Black Caps method
Can we do better than Rawlinson though?
It's a numbers game.
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@antipodean think you need only look at the most successful team in super rugby, and.how often they'd struggle with the Force, sure plenty were on the way back from SA, but they still struggled to put them away as well as they were expected to all the time (yea they still smoke them mostly)
I just looked and the Crusaders have 69.7% win ratio in thier history but this drops to 62% against a team that has won a mere 32% of thier games...
having a variety of styles is key to continued innovation, growth and development
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@taniwharugby I think results in Perthfontein was largely a mental issue.
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@antipodean oh I am sure that was a factor, but winning on the road was a huge part of Crusader successes over the years, the fact these guys managed to be more than a walkover in several games, even winning and getting 2 draws (one in Chch) just shows what a slightly different style can bring.
Not advocating anything for the Force, simply showing an anomaly, that is in part due to a different playing style and environment.
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@taniwharugby that's true, Force were the Crusader achilles' heel throughout Blackadder & Dean's tenures.
Chiefs have best historic record versus Crusaders (58.3% losing record), Hurricanes are the next best (59%).
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
for that stat to be relevant (and it's comparing almost zero with incredibly low), you should look at NZ team success in AUS and SA. I think our record in Aus will be significantly better - which implies the SA teams bring a different and more challenging game to the table.
They just don't travel well
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@nzzp 5 weeks in Australasia compared to at worst 3 for us travelling to the Republic. Travel certainly was much harder for the SA teams but as was said the biggest issue was the expansion. NZ stuck with the original 5 sides both Oz and SA diluted their playing strength.
If winning sport was only about the strength of your domestic competition, NZ cricket would be a basket case. You can only have 15 players on the field and 23 in a squad. SA Super teams could all prop up the competition table but as long as collectively they have 23 world class players...
This shouldn't need to be said but some people don't seem to get it.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
TBH, as I got older I probably started watching Saffa games again as I'd get up and watch them in the morning while I ate breakfast, while skipping through all the faffing between the actual play.
Anyway, to solve the issue, let's just designate one of our teams to play like a Saffa team.
I'd nominate the Canes but they have shit 10s and midget locks so might not work too well.we don't have that factory that they have somewhere outside of Bloemfontein that produces unit after unit of 2m+ jacked 2nd rowers with crew-cuts
I respectfully disagree. With a bit of canny investment and judicious planning, NZ rugby might be able to do the crew-cuts.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby I think results in Perthfontein was largely a mental issue.
Perthfontein?
Nearly double the number of NZ born kiwis in Perth (61K) compared to South Africans (35K) and both overwhelmed by the Pomeranians (167K)
https://quickstats.censusdata.abs.gov.au/census_services/getproduct/census/2016/quickstat/5GPER -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby I think results in Perthfontein was largely a mental issue.
Perthfontein?
Yes.
Nearly double the number of NZ born kiwis in Perth (61K) compared to South Africans (35K) and both overwhelmed by the Pomeranians (167K)
https://quickstats.censusdata.abs.gov.au/census_services/getproduct/census/2016/quickstat/5GPERNo one cares about statistics or facts thanks.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
My quote of Duane Monkley comes from the stuff article. And neither Mitch nor Gats strike me as tactically gifted.
Plumtree's quote is about culture.
Perhaps read your own post.
Mate the article from Duane Monkley is one I read where he said Fozzie was a good coach, maybe there were 2.
And out of interest Plumtree says;
All Blacks assistant coach John Plumtree has labelled All Blacks boss Ian Foster as the “best” head coach he has ever worked with.
Perhaps you should read it. I not saying he right or wrong, but that is what Plumtree say!
This is Duane Monkely's write up, perhaps you should read it all, he seems pretty positive about him. I appreciate you don't consider Mitch or Gats as tactically gifted, but Gats has had a fair bit of success and I not sure how qualified to decide about coaches ability compared to Monkelys etc.
But regardless mate I respect your opinion too, just know it is that an opinion by someone who I have no idea how much more you know than me or anyone else. -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 '"He was quite a step above both Mitch [Mitchell] and Gatty [Gatland] at that particular time, from my experiences.'
That's hardly a glowing endorsement.
The contracting issue is a fair point, but none of which addresses the fact we're playing yesterday's gameplan.
Mate read my post, it's Plumtree's opinion only, though I suspect he has more experience than you and I.
I see you have conveniently missed the fact he has said the best he has worked with, and that includes Schmidt and Joseph I believe, but you have cherry picked Gatland and Mitchell to prove a point? Neither who I am a particular fan of, but both have pretty good resumes'
My quote of Duane Monkley comes from the stuff article. And neither Mitch nor Gats strike me as tactically gifted.
Plumtree's quote is about culture.
Perhaps read your own post.
Mate the article from Duane Monkley is one I read where he said Fozzie was a good coach, maybe there were 2.
And out of interest Plumtree says;
All Blacks assistant coach John Plumtree has labelled All Blacks boss Ian Foster as the “best” head coach he has ever worked with.
Perhaps you should read it. I not saying he right or wrong, but that is what Plumtree say!
This is Duane Monkely's write up, perhaps you should read it all, he seems pretty positive about him. I appreciate you don't consider Mitch or Gats as tactically gifted, but Gats has had a fair bit of success and I not sure how qualified to decide about coaches ability compared to Monkelys etc.
But regardless mate I respect your opinion too, just know it is that an opinion by someone who I have no idea how much more you know than me or anyone else.Reckon you can get a good gauge of how good a coach is by listening to what they say in interviews to hear if they have good rugby sense or not - Foster & Plumtree don't have much at all to offer... but if you listen to blokes like Brown, Razer, Boyd, Joseph & Schmidt there's a big step up in rugby nous compared to the other two.
Foster was an average head coach for the Chiefs... when Rennie replaced him there was a big improvement straightaway, in his first year the Chiefs won the Super Rugby title, then won the Comp again the following year.
Plumtree was also an average head coach for my Canes team... really rated Boyd, he was at the Canes for four years, in that time we made two finals, winning one & making two semi-finals... when Boyd left & Plumtree replaced him the team went downhill.
So in summary why the hell did the NZRU Board think the Foster/Plumtree combo were going to be very good head & assistant AB coaches ? -
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster was an average head coach for the Chiefs
My recollection of Chiefs fans' comments differs, I can't remember a single one of them during that time saying Foster was an average, or even approaching average coach.
Then again Marc Hinton said (https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/119529151/all-blacks-coach-ian-foster-my-chiefs-experience-doesnt-define-who-i-am-now)
"It's the elephant in the room in any conversation with new All Blacks coach Ian Foster. Before he was **a wildly successful assistant** to Steve Hansen in the New Zealand setup he once fashioned a far less impressive record in charge of the Chiefs."I wouldn't have written that either, so perhaps my memory is faulty.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster was an average head coach for the Chiefs... when Rennie replaced him there was a big improvement straightaway, in his first year the Chiefs won the Super Rugby title,
Once again think you cherry picking facts mate. You conveniently mange to dodge the fact that the first year Rennie coached the Chiefs , he had the chance to pick such players as Brodie Retallic , Aaron Cruden SBW etc as it was 2012 when the change came in on contracting players outside of the Franchises region. I sure Wayne Smith was of great assistance to Rennie too as he hasn't won a comp since he had him as assistant!
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Foster was an average head coach for the Chiefs... when Rennie replaced him there was a big improvement straightaway, in his first year the Chiefs won the Super Rugby title,
Once again think you cherry picking facts mate. You conveniently mange to dodge the fact that the first year Rennie coached the Chiefs , he had the chance to pick such players as Brodie Retallic , Aaron Cruden SBW etc as it was 2012 when the change came in on contracting players outside of the Franchises region. I sure Wayne Smith was of great assistance to Rennie too as he hasn't won a comp since he had him as assistant!
What ? the fact is Rennie has a far more impressive head coaching record at Super Rugby level than Foster - sure Wayne Smith would've been a very good asset for him as an assistant, especially as a defence coach... but it's always the head coach that has the final say about the squad, starting 15 & bench, tactics & when to read from the stand when a player isn't playing well & needs to be replaced etc.
It's pretty obvious the current AB head & assistant coaches are out of their depth, the last two tests are obvious examples of that - we were bloody dreadful in the forwards, so we got completely out played by the Irish & French packs, also our playmakers were just as bad making too many poor decisions... it was bad enough to play an absolute shocker against Ireland, but to not learn from it by repeating the same shite performance against France was unbelievable !!!
If your forwards are not doing the hard yakka & your playmakers are not doing the job either it's up to the coaches to give them a bloody good shake up to get them back on track again.
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Is that a new tactic by the AB coaches against a rushing defence ? ...sounds about right
