Formula 1 2021
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@crucial said in Formula 1 2021:
@antipodean said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc Can't say I share your opinion. Lewis himself questioned why MB didn't take the opportunity for new tyres to cover RB.
Did the managers think at that stage it was no passing by lapped cars? If so the Mercedes decision was right. They stayed out and put a buffer of cars bewteen themselves and Max.
No, Lewis' engineer is quite clear they believed Lewis would've lost track position, they expected the lapped cars would've been let through and don't know if the debris will be cleared to permit green flag race conditions.
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Letting lapped cars past is standard practice after a safety car. The weird thing was only the ones that were in front of Verstappen being let through.
Mercedes were presumably gambling than the safety car took them to the finish. If they came in and Verstappen stayed out they would have been behind with potentially no chance to overtake. They made the conservative call and paid for it.
I think the race director is in a really tough place. It would have been just as disappointing for the race to finish under a safety car. Having a standard rule that the race has to finish with 3 competitive laps fixes that because Mercedes wouldn't have had to gamble on how long the safety car takes. Will never happen because the TV rights holders want predictable lengths.
Spa was the real joke. That race should just have been abandoned. I'm glad the title wasn't decided by 5 points or less (the points Verstappen gained over Hamilton for that farce).
All than said, this is the most interested I've been in F1 since Rosberg (jnr) retired. Bottas was clearly not in Hamilton's league and the season was just a walk over. Now that it's competitive again I'm looking forward to next season hopefully being a good one.
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@antipodean said in Formula 1 2021:
@crucial said in Formula 1 2021:
@antipodean said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc Can't say I share your opinion. Lewis himself questioned why MB didn't take the opportunity for new tyres to cover RB.
Did the managers think at that stage it was no passing by lapped cars? If so the Mercedes decision was right. They stayed out and put a buffer of cars bewteen themselves and Max.
No, Lewis' engineer is quite clear they believed Lewis would've lost track position, they expected the lapped cars would've been let through and don't know if the debris will be cleared to permit green flag race conditions.
Thanks for that.
I didn't see the actual race but was there going to be a loss of track position because Hamilton was already past the pit entry and would have to come right around?
That's just shit bad luck isn't it. -
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@machpants you’ve called nothing.
Max has played what’s in front of him. Nothing wrong with his driving at all.
Arguments against his driving already toast.
Dude calm down it was a joke. However, Verstappen won on a poor decision on the race director on the last lap, as another driver said ‘unacceptable’ But my point was more it is going to come down to a legal battle rather than the result
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@crucial said in Formula 1 2021:
@antipodean said in Formula 1 2021:
@crucial said in Formula 1 2021:
@antipodean said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc Can't say I share your opinion. Lewis himself questioned why MB didn't take the opportunity for new tyres to cover RB.
Did the managers think at that stage it was no passing by lapped cars? If so the Mercedes decision was right. They stayed out and put a buffer of cars bewteen themselves and Max.
No, Lewis' engineer is quite clear they believed Lewis would've lost track position, they expected the lapped cars would've been let through and don't know if the debris will be cleared to permit green flag race conditions.
Thanks for that.
I didn't see the actual race but was there going to be a loss of track position because Hamilton was already past the pit entry and would have to come right around?My understanding is when the VSC and / or safety car was called, Lewis had already passed pit lane entry and hence would've had to do a lap and lost track position as he's have exited pit lane behind the safety car with Max in front off him.
That's just shit bad luck isn't it.
Yeah it is. For all the uproar on twitter etc. I see this as pretty much the same as a penalty in the dying stages of a rugby game. It's likely to be more defining of the result than decisions taken earlier, however much that sliding doors moment would've played out. Case in point, how many MB/ Hamilton supporters are acknowledging that Lewis should've given up the lead after going wide at turn seven on lap one?
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@antipodean so it is really the set of circumstances altogether that made this 'unfair' from a Mercedes pov.
- yellow and red flags wipe away track advantage from distance. Accepted since forever.
- flags also remove backmarkers. Will happen automatically from red flags so artificially created during yellows.
- so it's the pitting/changing tyres rules once again that place an element of pure luck that combined with the other things just doesn't work and can create a 'loss' in advantage to leading drivers.
They either need to make it that everyone gets to pit without losing position or that no one does.
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@crucial said in Formula 1 2021:
@antipodean so it is really the set of circumstances altogether that made this 'unfair' from a Mercedes pov.
- yellow and red flags wipe away track advantage from distance. Accepted since forever.
- flags also remove backmarkers. Will happen automatically from red flags so artificially created during yellows.
- so it's the pitting/changing tyres rules once again that place an element of pure luck that combined with the other things just doesn't work and can create a 'loss' in advantage to leading drivers.
They either need to make it that everyone gets to pit without losing position or that no one does.
Those are the rules. Sometimes you profit, sometimes not
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@machpants said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@machpants you’ve called nothing.
Max has played what’s in front of him. Nothing wrong with his driving at all.
Arguments against his driving already toast.
Dude calm down it was a joke. However, Verstappen won on a poor decision on the race director on the last lap, as another driver said ‘unacceptable’ But my point was more it is going to come down to a legal battle rather than the result
Ha! Yeah George Russell completely neutral ….
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There seems to be quite a lot of whinging out there, with many not accepting the result etc. I understand where people are coming from here, but given that
- England are ODI world champions
- NZ - Lions was a drawn series
then I'm very comfortable with Max being the F1 world champion.
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@crucial said in Formula 1 2021:
Is it just this year or are the officials making trouble for themselves with 'adaptive' application of their own rules?
I can see the aim of not being pedantic and trying to make it about racing but the flipside of that is that everyone then questions their decisions.
For example if it can be clearly shown that Max went in front of Lewis under the yellow flag but the officials chose to ignore it where does that leave respect for the rules?
It’s a fair point but I think Max got away with it as Lewis was clearly trying to get him to “accidentally” pass him.
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I cannot get onboard with the way they selectively changed their own rules to manufacture that lap.
The reality is that any gamble taken by Mercedes to stay on those tyres is made with the knowledge of the rules
E.g. it might stay under safety car or if back markers are allowed to overtake then it is not just the three between lewis and his rival but all of them as normal.
They created a situation which was highly likely to make Max win and my issue is that they created it not that bad luck happened.
Not particularly rooting for either driver but that was rubbish and the officiating dropped the ball.
Horrible look for the sport and I do not blame Mercedes for chasing the appeals route.
F1 essentially have fallen back on an extra rule to ok it where they can do whatever they like and the rest of the rule book is irrelevant.
It sucks
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Normally I believe once ALL lapped cars are unlapped, the safety car comes in at the end of the following lap, I guess to give these cars time to get around to their rightful position at the back. In this instance, the following lap was the last lap, meaning the race would end under safety.
There was certainly some contriving of the rules; the race director also had the power to bring in the safety car when he wants, which is what he did. This seems to contradict the other rules though.
MV had no chance of winning. LH was easily holding him at about 12 seconds and MV had that and 4 cars that were racing each other, to overcome ( even though they would’ve been under blue flag and obliged to let MV through. There was no driver error or poor strategy decision from Mercedes, it was handed to Red Bull. And that sucks.
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Right, I just rewatched it. I don't think there was any sort of conspiracy. I think Michael Masi had a Wayne Barnes moment. Here is what I think happened:
Latifi crashes, 6 laps to go. Red Bull immediately looks at the whole situation and realises if all cards go their way they have a chance. So they pit Max immediately and put him on softs - 2/3 seconds a lap faster than Hamilton. Being behind Lewis was an advantage, as they could box him after it was too late for Mercedes to do so. Mercedes should have done the same thing, no question. But once they hadn't, they had to stay out. As Lewis is stuck at Safety Car pace, whilst Max can fly around to catch up after the pit, this means that Lewis will now likely lose track position if he pits.
Now Red Bull made their decision on the fact that lapped cars are allowed to pass the SC, right? So once Masi says they aren't, Red Bull are (rightly) furious and on the phone to Masi putting extreme pressure on him. To not allow is breaking the rules, in Lewis favour. Red Bull were bang to rights here. So here's Masi options now:
- Let through all the lapped cars. But then it's likely time wise he will run out and they'll have to finish the race under a safety car. This is a shit look for him as it effectively hands the race to Lewis as he had the safety car out longer than what was necessary.
- Don't allow any lapped cars through. But then he's broken the rules. Thats an even worse look for him.
- Let through those that are interfering with the real race (only 4 cars) and allow a last lap or racing. This really was his best option.
Ultimately though, he shouldn't have been in this situation.
If he'd allowed all the lapped cars through at the safety car commencement then there would be less controversy, and major praise for Red Bull's superior strategy in the heat of the battle.
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@majorrage said in [Formula 1 2021](
Now Red Bull made their decision on the fact that lapped cars are allowed to pass the SC, right? So once Masi says they aren't, Red Bull are (rightly) furious and on the phone to Masi putting extreme pressure on him.
As Martin Brundle alluded to at the time, I don’t think there is any firm rule around this. It’s at the race directors discretion (on safety grounds) whether lapped cars are allowed through. Historically it’s been 50/50, so quite a big grey area.
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@davesofthunder Agreed. Good point.
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@scribe said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in [Formula 1 2021](
Now Red Bull made their decision on the fact that lapped cars are allowed to pass the SC, right? So once Masi says they aren't, Red Bull are (rightly) furious and on the phone to Masi putting extreme pressure on him.
As Martin Brundle alluded to at the time, I don’t think there is any firm rule around this. It’s at the race directors discretion (on safety grounds) whether lapped cars are allowed through. Historically it’s been 50/50, so quite a big grey area.
I've been doing a bit more reading on it, and you are correct that it's not a rule and is at the Steward's discretion. However, given everything was satisfied (safety car coming in, track cleared up) if he hadn't let cars through, then Red Bull would now be doing their own legal challenges and to why this wasn't done.
to be honest, reading the official write up on F1.com throws my whole thesis above up in the air.
Monday Morning Debrief after the 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix: Unpicking the Safety Car period that turned the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix on its head – and Mercedes’ protest explained | Formula 1®
Was this the most dramatic and contentious conclusion of a world championship finale in the sport’s history? It’s certainly a contender, right up there with Brazil 2008 and Japan 1976.
