Depth at 10
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@cgrant said in Depth at 10:
Richie Mo'unga would be OK if the AB forwards put him on the front foot. This was not the case against France, with the notable exception of a 20 min period.
McClutchie was the standout 10 in the NPC. But his size could be a problem at the highest level.I don't think we can take that as a given. Opposition with forward based games see to that and their backs have learned skills to keep the ball away from our forwards without kicking it back to us.
We need a 10 that can manipulate the opposition into providing opportunities even if or forwards aren't dominant because a lot of the time even good forwards will only get parity.
Picking a 10 based on the work of 9 other players being good is crazy. -
If only Grant Fox was involved.
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@antipodean get Beaver in there!!
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If we look at the U20s 1st 5s in recent years we have had:
2021 - Aidan Morgan, Ruben Love, Harry Godfrey
2020 - Zarn Sullivan, Stu Cruden, Rivez Reihana, Aidan Morgan, Ruben Love (training squad only)
2019 - Fergus Burke, Rivez Reihana, (Kaleb Trask)The majority of these players aren't yet regular starters at SR level or playing at 1st 5 if they are.
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@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
If we look at the U20s 1st 5s in recent years we have had:
2021 - Aidan Morgan, Ruben Love, Harry Godfrey
2020 - Zarn Sullivan, Stu Cruden, Rivez Reihana, Aidan Morgan, Ruben Love (training squad only)
2019 - Fergus Burke, Rivez Reihana, (Kaleb Trask)The majority of these players aren't yet regular starters at SR level or playing at 1st 5 if they are.
Got the info on the years before that?
2018 - Plummer & Trask?
2017 - Perofeta? -
@bovidae said in Depth at 10:
If we look at the U20s 1st 5s in recent years we have had:
2021 - Aidan Morgan, Ruben Love, Harry Godfrey
2020 - Zarn Sullivan, Stu Cruden, Rivez Reihana, Aidan Morgan, Ruben Love (training squad only)
2019 - Fergus Burke, Rivez Reihana, (Kaleb Trask)The majority of these players aren't yet regular starters at SR level or playing at 1st 5 if they are.
i guess the next question is how many are starting at 10 in NPC
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@frank said in Depth at 10:
Zarn Sullivan is the obvious guy to try.
Problems
-he won't get game time there because of BB playing for Auckland
-he is being used at fullback
-Fozzie is way too conservative to think outside the box and pick himI think this is getting a bit silly. Sullivan hasn't even had a single start as a ten at NPC level
He's unlikely to get a run at ten because he's been very good for the Blues at fullback. MacDoanld (a decent fullback himself), has raved about Sullivans natural lines from fullback. Maybe his best position is actually fullback?
Maybe he becomes a ten, maybe he doesn't. But the rating he is getting in thread based on almost no adult rugby in the position is over the top
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@duluth said in Depth at 10:
@frank said in Depth at 10:
Zarn Sullivan is the obvious guy to try.
Problems
-he won't get game time there because of BB playing for Auckland
-he is being used at fullback
-Fozzie is way too conservative to think outside the box and pick himI think this is getting a bit silly. Sullivan hasn't even had a single start as a ten at NPC level
He's unlikely to get a run at ten because he's been very good for the Blues at fullback. MacDoanld (a decent fullback himself), has raved about Sullivans natural lines from fullback. Maybe his best position is actually fullback?
Maybe he becomes a ten, maybe he doesn't. But the rating he is getting in thread based on almost no adult rugby in the position is over the top
I agree, it's much too early to talk about him in terms of the AB 10 jersey. But you can understand why someone ends up there. Mo'unga and Barrett have been found wanting in tough games - (admittedly in a team which has been tactically outcoached - I'd be interested to see if other top coaches could make something out of them), and no new 10s have been selected for Super Rugby save Aidan Morgan. We're looking for a saviour that won't come.
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@duluth said in Depth at 10:
@frank said in Depth at 10:
Zarn Sullivan is the obvious guy to try.
Problems
-he won't get game time there because of BB playing for Auckland
-he is being used at fullback
-Fozzie is way too conservative to think outside the box and pick himI think this is getting a bit silly. Sullivan hasn't even had a single start as a ten at NPC level
He's unlikely to get a run at ten because he's been very good for the Blues at fullback. MacDoanld (a decent fullback himself), has raved about Sullivans natural lines from fullback. Maybe his best position is actually fullback?
Maybe he becomes a ten, maybe he doesn't. But the rating he is getting in thread based on almost no adult rugby in the position is over the top
definately
What i do hope however is some of the young guys look at this tour and think "i can do better than that" and set out to prove and and earn a shot at the AB's
I dont think many from the current squad deserve reputation/potential protection like we've seen for AB's of the past
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"Depth at 10"
This should be a short thread. -
@nostrildamus Mitchell Hunt had a more than descent Super Rugby Aoetearoa season and was a finalist as well as playing a key role in dismantling the Crusaders this year in the Highlandee's clinical win. Surprised he was not in the All Blacks setup this year.
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@sbw1 said in Depth at 10:
@nostrildamus Mitchell Hunt had a more than descent Super Rugby Aoetearoa season and was a finalist as well as playing a key role in dismantling the Crusaders this year in the Highlandee's clinical win. Surprised he was not in the All Blacks setup this year.
He is adequate at best. I see nothing that he brings to the table where he can say he is better than the incumbents. Like the other options, he is not a better passer, not a better kicker, not a better runner, not a better defender (well, may be a better defender than RM but my dead grandmother would give RM a run for his money there).
It is plainly obvious the ABs picked the two best 10s (three best is you count McKenzie).
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@crazy-horse said in Depth at 10:
@sbw1 said in Depth at 10:
@nostrildamus Mitchell Hunt had a more than descent Super Rugby Aoetearoa season and was a finalist as well as playing a key role in dismantling the Crusaders this year in the Highlandee's clinical win. Surprised he was not in the All Blacks setup this year.
He is adequate at best. I see nothing that he brings to the table where he can say he is better than the incumbents. Like the other options, he is not a better passer, not a better kicker, not a better runner, not a better defender (well, may be a better defender than RM but my dead grandmother would give RM a run for his money there).
It is plainly obvious the ABs picked the two best 10s (three best is you count McKenzie).
Maybe a better coach can get more out of them. A more simple direct gameplan for the forwards, that gets the backs on the front foot will be a good start
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@canefan said in Depth at 10:
@crazy-horse said in Depth at 10:
@sbw1 said in Depth at 10:
@nostrildamus Mitchell Hunt had a more than descent Super Rugby Aoetearoa season and was a finalist as well as playing a key role in dismantling the Crusaders this year in the Highlandee's clinical win. Surprised he was not in the All Blacks setup this year.
He is adequate at best. I see nothing that he brings to the table where he can say he is better than the incumbents. Like the other options, he is not a better passer, not a better kicker, not a better runner, not a better defender (well, may be a better defender than RM but my dead grandmother would give RM a run for his money there).
It is plainly obvious the ABs picked the two best 10s (three best is you count McKenzie).
Maybe a better coach can get more out of them. A more simple direct gameplan for the forwards, that gets the backs on the front foot will be a good start
I have said since day 1 that RM seems unsure of his role when playing for the ABs. I initially put that down to the back line not being his to run owing to BB being at fullback. Now, who knows? Simply not good enough or confused in his role by other factors?
BB has regressed too. My first thought was that he has lost a yard or two of pace and I always thought he would struggle when that happens. Is he confused too?
RM and BB remind me of a few players from both codes that struggle when laden with the role of being the steady playmaker. I am thinking Botica, Spencer, Cooper, Benji Marshall, Shaun Johnson to name just a few. Magnificent football players but they need a steadying player along side them to be free to play the way that makes them so good. They all seem to regress when expected to guide teams around the park.
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@Crazy-Horse I agree that we picked the best two 10s we have available.
I also strongly agree that the duel play maker idea was idiotic and fucked with both players form and confidence during a RWC. Another black mark against Hansen/Foster - Ben Smith should have been full back and RM should have been allowed to learn test footy from the bench. Throwing him into the 10 position in the biggest pressure cooker there is against teams that were going to come out and try to batter us into submission was just appalling coaching and selecting. They really set him up to fail and he's not looked comfortable against the big physical teams since.
It annoys me as RM had a really positive start to his AB career - I remember him coming off the bench against SA and carving up. He needed to stay there and find his feet before being chucked in the hot seat as it was clear his game suited the looser SR more than test footy (as you'd expect given that's all he'd played at that point).
It also annoys me as it fucked with Beauden's form after he was POTY 2 years running. What the fuck were they thinking shunting him to fullback to make way for an u proven rookie? Especially when we had one if the world's best full backs already? Just so dumb.
This year I think they had it right with Beauden starting again and RM off the bench. Beauden's injury came at the worst time when we were about to face the toughest tests of the year given they were at the very end of an insanely long tour. I know Beauden is not the kind of 10 that can take control of a game, but he has bucketloads of experience and can handle the physical exchanges much better, and that would allow RM to come on fresh against tiring defenses and do what he does best.
Outside of those 2 I wouldn't have a clue, though this thread has been informative. But for the next couple of years we need to try and make best use of what we have.
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I am somewhat surprised at the worries at 10 on TSF.
I'm not bothered at all. RM is a fantastic player and if we can get something close to parity up front & also a backline gameplan designed to make the best use out of him, then all will be fine.
In the last two games, we had neither.
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RM and BB are the dog's bollocks when they play in a well-coached team. End of thread.
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@crazy-horse said in Depth at 10:
@canefan said in Depth at 10:
@crazy-horse said in Depth at 10:
@sbw1 said in Depth at 10:
@nostrildamus Mitchell Hunt had a more than descent Super Rugby Aoetearoa season and was a finalist as well as playing a key role in dismantling the Crusaders this year in the Highlandee's clinical win. Surprised he was not in the All Blacks setup this year.
He is adequate at best. I see nothing that he brings to the table where he can say he is better than the incumbents. Like the other options, he is not a better passer, not a better kicker, not a better runner, not a better defender (well, may be a better defender than RM but my dead grandmother would give RM a run for his money there).
It is plainly obvious the ABs picked the two best 10s (three best is you count McKenzie).
Maybe a better coach can get more out of them. A more simple direct gameplan for the forwards, that gets the backs on the front foot will be a good start
I have said since day 1 that RM seems unsure of his role when playing for the ABs. I initially put that down to the back line not being his to run owing to BB being at fullback. Now, who knows? Simply not good enough or confused in his role by other factors?
BB has regressed too. My first thought was that he has lost a yard or two of pace and I always thought he would struggle when that happens. Is he confused too?
RM and BB remind me of a few players from both codes that struggle when laden with the role of being the steady playmaker. I am thinking Botica, Spencer, Cooper, Benji Marshall, Shaun Johnson to name just a few. Magnificent football players but they need a steadying player along side them to be free to play the way that makes them so good. They all seem to regress when expected to guide teams around the park.
I've been staying away from this thread because it kicked off with a discussion between you and me, but I haven't been able to put into words my concerns.
I think in those two sentences, you've summed them up, and it could quite possibly be the fault of the coaches in putting him in that position. But, as you say, it could be him.
Watching the game on the weekend, I quite honestly felt that we could have had an absolute novice out there and they would have been been about as equally good (bad) as Mo'unga played. I know that's unfair, but our best rugby happened when he touched the ball the least.
I would have expected it from a player like Love (the least experienced of the starting 1st fives in Super rugby) if the ABs had been stupid enough to have taken him on tour as the next 'young' thing.
But, it's four years into Mo'unga's international career and he has more than 30 games in the jersey. He is about 11 games behind Carlos Spencer in terms of experience (will overtake next year), and less than 20 behind Cruden (he'll surpass that before the next WC), but he looks like he still needs training wheels when he hits a situation when our forwards are not clearly on top. People are still talking about how he should come off the bench until he learns how to be successful even though he's had more than 30 tests!
He should be a leader in this team, but he is simply a reactor. He just does not drive our team around. He has never done so against top tier opposition, even when we've needed it, and each time he gets put in that situation at international level, he fails in his response.
Something is wrong because neither he nor Barrett (who I could write a similar post about) have become better players in the international arena for about 3-4 years.
I don't know who is the future, but I'm pretty sure it isn't Richie Mo'unga. I know some will doubt this, but I truly hope I'm wrong. If he drives us to a WC win, I'll be his biggest fan forever (in the same way that I adore Beaver, the only player I want to meet more than McCaw or Carter).
