All Blacks 2021

Canes4life

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@frank said in All Blacks 2021:

Peter Umaga Jensen should have been picked despite an average Super rugby season.

I believe Hansen did that several times with players he deemed to be good fits for the ABs.

There's still time.

I not convinced PUJ is a test player. We are a bit week at 12, but I think Tupaea has a better look doesn't he? PUJ hasn't had a good NPC either.

What have you been watching? He’s been the shining light in a crap Lions team and has somehow managed to still run up the metres on attack. He’s been quite dominant actually.

He had a fantastic 2020 campaign including dominating his clashes with his AB rivals, but fell out of favour with Holland even though he was clearly the most consistent midfielder in the Hurricanes. Which bewildered most of us.

I think if he gets another crack at test footy he will shine.

canefan

@canes4life said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@frank said in All Blacks 2021:

Peter Umaga Jensen should have been picked despite an average Super rugby season.

I believe Hansen did that several times with players he deemed to be good fits for the ABs.

There's still time.

I not convinced PUJ is a test player. We are a bit week at 12, but I think Tupaea has a better look doesn't he? PUJ hasn't had a good NPC either.

What have you been watching? He’s been the shining light in a crap Lions team and has somehow managed to still run up the metres on attack. He’s been quite dominant actually.

He had a fantastic 2020 campaign including dominating his clashes with his AB rivals, but fell out of favour with Holland even though he was clearly the most consistent midfielder in the Hurricanes. Which bewildered most of us.

I think if he gets another crack at test footy he will shine.

Holland is a dope. He and the board should be shown the door. That is all.

Crazy Horse

I am reserving judgement on QT until after the next Super season. While he has done OK with the ABs I wonder if he has done anything more with the ABs than someone like Nankivell would have achieved. I don't yet see what sets QT apart from other options.

Crucial

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2021:

I am reserving judgement on QT until after the next Super season. While he has done OK with the ABs I wonder if he has done anything more with the ABs than someone like Nankivell would have achieved. I don't yet see what sets QT apart from other options.

I agree. I support him getting gametime in the ABs and can see his value/ potential but all in a development sense and because our options are currently slim.
But yes, I would like to see him show why he deserves to keep the black jersey by showing out a bit in Super

Chris

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

Normally I don't rise to this sort of comment, but...

You are blinded by your Love for Foster,

Where have I said I love - or even admire Foster?

How do we know if we don’t change ,

A simply ridiculous point. It's like arguing Robertson should be sacked as Crusaders coach as another coach might win by bigger margins and, until we sack Robertson, we won't know.

All we know it what we have now which is poor.

You one sensible and obvious comment. To which I refer you to the entirety of my post where I took the time to think and set out what I thought the problems were.

By your reckoning Foster should have the job forever no matter what his record of success is,because you are scared of change.
In case in doesn’t work.

Having spent a moderately successful career helping organisations adapt and change to improve the quality of their output, the idea that I'm scared of change is really fucking silly. But I've seen too many cases where change without considering the root causes of the problem, not only didn't work, it made things worse.

And no change were things get worse yes.

And you jumped right out of the water and took the bait.

Chris

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Ian Foster has signed a two-year contract extension as All Blacks head coach through to the 2023 World Cup, the Herald can reveal.

After much conjecture, the Herald understands New Zealand Rugby has moved to give Foster and his management team security as they prepare to lead the All Blacks for 14 weeks away from home.

Foster's assistants John Plumtree, Brad Mooar, Scott McLeod and Greg Feek are expected to re-sign alongside Foster in the coming weeks.
Ian Foster signs new deal with All Blacks after tense standoff
If his assistants are yet to sign or be offered deals, the NZRFU should not be extending those now
That quote said it would happen before they went on tour, so don't hold out much hope.

I can't find a source which confirms their appointment though, so there is some hope.

Assuming you can't get rid of Foster, I'd look for two or perhaps three new assistants:

Forwards: If Plums is the voice behind Ardie at 8, he should go. I like Coventry, who else is there?
Defence: Robertson started as a defense specialist, correct @Chris ? Who else?
Attack: Brown is the obvious one to try to get, but I don't think they can get him. Who else?
Scrum/set piece: How happy are we with Feek here? Ryan could be good here as well.

Mate Robertson,Ryan and Brown would be awesome,I wouldn't mind McDonald being involved as well.

sparky

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:

NZRU need to decide if they want to win the World Cup or not.

We have no chance with the current coaching setup. Time for a big decision.

My review of the All Blacks 2021.

Positives

Held on to the Bledisloe again.
Won the Rugby Championship again.
Some very good youngsters coming through.
Scored 101 tries.
Nice to have some money coming in from new sponsors

Negatives

We look a billion miles from a side that is going to win the World Cup in two years time.
The backline defence is awful.
Our forwards struggle against big packs.
Our inside back struggle against the rush defence.
We don't cope with pressure well and make too many mistakes.
We no longer have an advantage in fitness and conditioning against the top sides.
A number of players in our squad have 30+ caps but have not developed into world-class players.

Conclusion

Current coaching set up is not good enough.

stodders

@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:

@kirwan said in All Blacks 2021:

NZRU need to decide if they want to win the World Cup or not.

We have no chance with the current coaching setup. Time for a big decision.

My review of the All Blacks 2021.

Positives

Held on to the Bledisloe again.
Won the Rugby Championship again.
Some very good youngsters coming through.
Scored 101 tries.
Nice to have some money coming in from new sponsors

Negatives

We look a billion miles from a side that is going to win the World Cup in two years time.
The backline defence is awful.
Our forwards struggle against big packs.
Our inside back struggle against the rush defence.
We don't cope with pressure well and make too many mistakes.
We no longer have an advantage in fitness and conditioning against the top sides.
A number of players in our squad have 30+ caps but have not developed into world-class players.

Conclusion

Current coaching set up is not good enough.

I'll counter slightly...

Scrum and lineout have been better than ok most of the time. Lack of a true third lineout option has meant the ABs defensive lineout work has not been as good as in the past. It is an area the ABs used to apply pressure and disrupt. It needs to become that again.

Scramble defence has had a lot of practice and in the main has been working. The effort is there which if it wasn't, would say that the players have lost faith with the coaching team.

ABs still have genuine game breakers in their team. When the passes stick, even the best defensive structures are being broken. The issue is when the passes don't stick or the team has to grind it out. Too much ball is being turned over which is just inviting pressure and problems.

That's the positives.

I think Savea is the conundrum the AB coaches have to solve in the back row. If they are hell bent on him playing to utilise his ball carrying and leg drive in close, then they have to select the supporting cast that will best accentuate his strengths. Or they can bench him and use him as an impact player and go with a different starting trio. The trouble with that is that he may leave to go overseas as a result.

That's one of the biggest problem the ABs have at the moment IMO. Several of the top players have taken sabbaticals in Japan and have returned in less than ideal shape. I would expect BBBR, Whitelock and BB to return in better shape next year with a proper pre-season in them. The ABs used to be the international team with the most cohesion. Like an international club team at times. But now, with injuries, retirements, sabbaticals and COVID, the cohesion isn't there so much. Add into this a lack of experienced combinations and you have a recipe for the current malaise. And that's even before you get to judging whether the current coaching set up is good enough.

One thing I would add regarding coaching is that the AB squad has been away together for 18 weeks. That's a really good stint for a coaching team to work with the players, without off field distractions. Sure, there would be fatigue (physical and mental) as a result, but the patterns and messages the coaching team have been impressing on the players should be starting to show. The 1st 40 mins last night was as bad as I've seen from an ABs side since 2009 when they did their best headless chicken act without Dan Carter at 10. That suggests the coaching message isn't getting through or it isn't working as intended. Next year is a big year.

stodders

Personally, the ABs should look to shore up the defence. Before the EOYT, statistically they had become the 2nd best defence in world rugby. I think I heard that on a Squidge video.

With teams now taking the game to the ABs, the days of we'll score more tries than you have gone. So the first objective has to be to reduce the number of tries being conceded. You don't win world cups without a world class defence. This EOYT showed the ABs don't have one, for a myriad of reasons.

Nevorian

Not sure how world ranking points work but is it possible that us All Blacks will be slipping a few places lower once the likes of Ireland, England and Francehave played out the upcoming Six Nations?

stodders

@nevorian said in All Blacks 2021:

Not sure how world ranking points work but is it possible that us All Blacks will be slipping a few places lower once the likes of Ireland, England and Francehave played out the upcoming Six Nations?

Yep. I can see at least one of those teams jumping above the ABs. With Ireland still to play today, latest rankings are:

1 South Africa 90.61 (-1.22)
2 New Zealand 88.75 (-1.28)
3 England 87.83 (+1.22)
4 Ireland 86.30
5 (↑6) France 85.53 (+1.28)
6 (↓5) Australia 83.92 (-1.17)
7 Scotland 83.05 (+0.28)
8 (↑9) Wales 81.56 (+1.17)
9 (↓8) Argentina 80.81
10 Japan 78.26 (-0.2)

So I can see England and Ireland overtaking NZ in 6N and possibly France. That would put NZ in around 4th or 5th spot. Which right now, feels about right.

Machpants

@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:

@nevorian said in All Blacks 2021:

Not sure how world ranking points work but is it possible that us All Blacks will be slipping a few places lower once the likes of Ireland, England and Francehave played out the upcoming Six Nations?

Yep. I can see at least one of those teams jumping above the ABs. With Ireland still to play today, latest rankings are:

1 South Africa 90.61 (-1.22)
2 New Zealand 88.75 (-1.28)
3 England 87.83 (+1.22)
4 Ireland 86.30
5 (↑6) France 85.53 (+1.28)
6 (↓5) Australia 83.92 (-1.17)
7 Scotland 83.05 (+0.28)
8 (↑9) Wales 81.56 (+1.17)
9 (↓8) Argentina 80.81
10 Japan 78.26 (-0.2)

So I can see England and Ireland overtaking NZ in 6N and possibly France. That would put NZ in around 4th or 5th spot. Which right now, feels about right.

It’ll be another to add to Foster’s CV, our lowest ever ranking. His AB and head coach CV is packed with records and firsts!

Kiwiwomble

@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:

@nevorian said in All Blacks 2021:

Not sure how world ranking points work but is it possible that us All Blacks will be slipping a few places lower once the likes of Ireland, England and Francehave played out the upcoming Six Nations?

Yep. I can see at least one of those teams jumping above the ABs. With Ireland still to play today, latest rankings are:

1 South Africa 90.61 (-1.22)
2 New Zealand 88.75 (-1.28)
3 England 87.83 (+1.22)
4 Ireland 86.30
5 (↑6) France 85.53 (+1.28)
6 (↓5) Australia 83.92 (-1.17)
7 Scotland 83.05 (+0.28)
8 (↑9) Wales 81.56 (+1.17)
9 (↓8) Argentina 80.81
10 Japan 78.26 (-0.2)

So I can see England and Ireland overtaking NZ in 6N and possibly France. That would put NZ in around 4th or 5th spot. Which right now, feels about right.

yeah, i no longer see this as a blip after the world cup loss, other countries are very much in the ascendency and are scrambling, not like we have DC and McCaw just out with injury or something

mariner4life

Warning: Long Post Mortem post

So that's a wrap for AB season 2021. Started sort of meh, rose a bit, then sort of collapsed in a heap. Some serious challenges, not least being away from home for a long time, playing in a few different countries.

I'll leave anything that has its own thread, but thought i would stick down my thoughts on positions, tactics, and challenges.

Positional Breakdowns
Fullback
J Barrett is locked in here in the 15 shirt. Had a stinker on Saturday, but overall you would consider him a positive for the year, and i would imagine he starts the first test next year. I'm not completely sold on him being a long-term fixture though. he's not quick, he doesn't have that "time" that great players have, his kicking, while long, is not accurate, and he is still a ropey decision maker. Fearless, good under the high ball, and kicks a mean goal.
Who is behind him though? DMac is gone, and was poor anyway. His brother is really the only other player around. There's room for someone

Wing
The AB position of strength. Jordan is a star and possible player of the year. We need to find a way to get him more ball. Reiko is a brilliant winger. Reece is really good too, but could do with a new role that better suits his strength (he would be lethal playing the roving role Lowe had for Ireland). Bridge played well on the weekend, but if we're consistent was substandard before that. I think we're pretty stacked in those 2 jerseys, we just don't give them enough opportunities

Midfield
Well, we've all seen this before? Every weekend is a new combination. No one single player is an absolute definite. ALB is handy at both spots, but needs the right partner. It's easy to see why they want Ioane at centre, his pace is a threat, and he's the only midfielder we have who can skin someone on the outside. Havili looked okay early, but as the games got harder, he was out of his depth, finishing with a couple of shockers. Tupaea has had some bright moments, but is a baby, and hasn't exactly screamed "to the manor born". Goodhue to come back adds something, i hope he shows a bit. As per fucking usual, the whole thing is a muddle, i don't know why guys are picked or what their roles are. And they have to take responsibility for the fact our wingers never get the ball.

First 5
See the Thread

Halfback
Well there is Smith, who is awesome. TJP is hopefully finished as a test player now. The parts of his game that made up for his ropey pass are now not enough. Weber has jumped to #2 but is not great for much except arriving and getting the ball out. Christie i thought has shown more promise than i gave him credit for. I guess Fakatava is the big hope when he is fit. But we definitely need someone we can rely on to arrive.

Loose Forwards
Like the midfield, a fucking muddle. Plenty of talent, not enough of it specialised. Constant rotation among some players destroyed any hope for anyone to grow in to teh position. Too many big 7s that aren't 6s or 8s. I've said my Savea piece to death, and i absolutely stand by that. Papali'i went well at 7 but didn't have the impact against Ireland. Blackadder has a huge motor but isn't physical enough yet. Both of those guys have huge futures. I am un unashamed Ioane fan, but i don;t think he stood out anywhere near enough when required (has become a good lineout option though). Sotutu and Jacobson fell right out of favour. Cane made a pretty solid return. Heaps of ability there, but there is a muddling of roles that is making our trios less than the sum of the parts. Savea absolutely having to play every game is hurting our side. No one is good on the ground, and we aren't in a position to counterruck turnover either. It makes it pretty easy to keep the ball off us. Huge work on for next year.

Locks
Wow. Barest cupboard. Whitelock was cooked by the end of the year. Retallick took until the last game of the year to start looking like his old self. Scott Barrett is a good squaddie but not much more. The rest are kids with huge workons, and not enough grunt. Like the 10s, you look around the country and there aren't guys screaming out to be picked. We need to build someone here, probably 2 someones. And we need to do it fast.

Hookers
Cody Taylor played far more tests than he should of. His form all year was patchy at best, substandard at worst. Dane Coles made a very good return i thought, and was pretty excellent on Sunday morning. The new boy is a real find. Needs set piece work, but holy shit with ball in hand he's an absolute weapon. Needs to develop next year, as his skill set is in dire need. Aumua not good enough at any facet to get in at this stage.

Props
See the Thread.

Just regarding the playing group, there absolutely is talent there. It's not 2015 talent, but it's at least as good as anyone else. Some is being used poorly, some needs to work out what test footy is, some is just overrated. I think there is the bones there of a side that could absolutely win the next World Cup. The way we use the players needs a re-think, which brings us nicely to tactics

Tactics
We've all said it, over and over. We all see the same thing. From the couch, it does not look like we have any idea how or where to attack, or create opportunities. We're static, lateral, and a bit slow. We kick, like a lot. And from decent positions. But we do not kick accurately, so effectively we turn decent attacking areas in to more tackling. Saturday we changed everything at halftime, decided we would pick and go, and stop kicking everything away. it worked for a while, but that was a huge change to everything we have been doing for weeks. For me the biggest let down this year is our attack, or lack thereof. A huge reliance in individual skill will only get you so far if the other team keep making tackles, which good test sides are very good at doing. A game built on counter-attack is no good if you can't turn the ball over, or kick everything back (poorly).
We want to play with width, but the way we are doing that is shuffling the ball across until a winger gets tackled by 2 guys by the touchline.
We have wonderful running 10s who are not playing that way because they either don't see a way to do it, or have been told not to. If our 10s got on the run and played straight things would open up, but it's shuffle shuffle shuffle, and often passing to guys in a worse spot. We rarely receive the ball on the run, we do not commit enough numbers to breakdowns, and therefore we play slow ball to slow ball until we put up another poor kick. The entire attack needs a rethink, in terms of personnel, and how we use them.

Challenges
If these coaches were actual professionals they would be sitting down at the start of the year with furrowed brows, because they have some decisions to make.
Who of the veterans is going to be an effective player in 2 years? Anyone who is not that should be relegated instantly. Joe Moody, Cody Taylor, Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick should all be in the gun there. There are some huge miles on those clocks.
Where can we find some power runners in the tight 5?
What does our ideal midfield look like in terms of the type of players we want?
How do we get our 10s in to the game?

My main fear is we rock up next year with teh same 30 players, the same first XV, but just a tweak here and there. The Crusaders roll to another soft Super Rugby title and it's assumed that once again that will lead to International glory. 2021 is rinsed and repeated.
We'll keep the Bledisloe though, because the Wallabies have it worse than us.

bayimports

This post is deleted!

bobily2

It's interesting, because we keep hearing how Ethan Blackadder has been throwing himself around at training, and knocking around the other players. But you're right - we haven't quite seen that yet for the ABs - particularly on offense (though even on defense he's behind Ioane in terms of physicality). I'd like to see more of him at 6 - I personally don't think he's a 7, but we would expect to see that physicality come through eventually.

Perhaps he was told to run and hit Beauden Barrett repeatedly?

nostrildamus

Can I just grumble about blaming it on Super rugby?
Basic skills are lacking, running on the ball is infrequent, team cohesion is gone. I suspect those are still important in Super games..and the NH games they played recently weren't exactly in the mud, the blood, the sleet, gale, storm or snow.

nzzp

@mariner4life great post.

Hard to disagree with it; maybe pencil in Zarn.

For the locks, I'm not writing off Sam and Brodie quite yet. A lot will depend on Super; one of the problems of thin lockign stocks generally is they can play the better ones into the ground. Scott Robertson/Sam W is the poster child for this.

As for the loosies, it's the requirement to have Ardie that drives other compromises. Like Beauden, a sensational rugby player, but missing some key elements. Like height.

Also, we don't know the bolter for 2023 yet. Someone might just pop up having a Nehe Milner-Skudder type season.

The other issue is that shining at Super no longer means shining at Test level. That's not on Foster, but it is a problem for us generally (and SA and Aus)

taniwharugby

@mariner4life great post.

right now I think our strengths are in a simple fairly direct game plan, we have looked best when we have kept it fairly tight and played the %, but any time we do this and look the business, its almost like we only did so by falling into an old habit, and when we realise, we revert back to kicking for kickings sake, going to wide too soon, with the wrong players in the wrong areas and get caught short.

canefan

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:

@mariner4life great post.

right now I think our strengths are in a simple fairly direct game plan, we have looked best when we have kept it fairly tight and played the %, but any time we do this and look the business, its almost like we only did so by falling into an old habit, and when we realise, we revert back to kicking for kickings sake, going to wide too soon, with the wrong players in the wrong areas and get caught short.

I agree. It resulted in the best 20 minutes for us on Saturday before we reverted to type

The Silver Fern

All Blacks 2021