2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA
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@catogrande said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Not brilliant and as @MajorRage said the Lions did get the rub of the green. However such stuff goes on all the time. I can't remember a game that I've seen where a ref's inconsistencies evened out exactly.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Different referees might have something to do with the differenign levels of refereeing. A more likely scenario than the whole of rugby officialdom getting duped by Rassie's "master stroke".
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
The Jury is still out on this one. A year ago this was pretty much a given. Where Rassie took the Boks to and from where they came from was nothing short of amazing. But I feel there's every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy>
Discuss with vigour...
"Every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy". Outside of SA, that's a given. He won't be short of a job, but I doubt he'll get any admiration for his achievements. But then, so what? He is loved by his own people for delivering what they want. All that remains to be seen is whether his continued involvement with SA proves to be a positive or negative for the team and their chances on the pitch. If Sa continue to win trophies, then I don't think he, nor SARU, really care.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
I think you are being a little too subtle with your trolling here 😁
Anyhow - point one speaks to one of the main reasons I can't support what he did. Refs make mistakes and those mistakes can (and in my opinion did) influence the outcome of games. But so what, what is the point of litigating those mistakes after the fact?
When I squint through green glasses glasses I can see some issues that was worth discussing though.
1- the refs not holding to their pre-game briefing notes (engaging early on a lineout maul and disrupting caterpillar rucks). When I ref tells you that he is going to focus on these issues, you react and the other team doesn't it is annoying. It is something that can be remedied in future games.
2- related to the above is the issue of "respecting the captains equally". In the warm up matches the Lions used their experience to influence the referees and it worked. In the SA A game the chatter was insane and they had pump in crowd noise for the rest of the tour. It appears that this was brought up in the prematch briefing and the Boks felt it was not acted upon.
3 - the refs not keeping to their stated focus areas (rolling away, foul play etc).
Rassie's video was not structured around or fucused enough on the things that should be rectified in the following tests. Instead it just became a wall of noise.
One thing I would say though - I feel people are overstating how a) insulting/abusive the video was and b) how much of the criticism was aimed directly at Berry rather than the group as a whole.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@majorrage said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
.... I think it was Major Rage, I get lost with the street signs indicating who is responding to who, said:"complete and utter horse shit" and I say he has pronounced that accurately.
I have read the accounts here with interest, against the backdrop of some years of history, watching, for example, during my professional cadetship from the upper floors of the South African Airways Building in Elizabeth Street, Sydney as the '71 tour protestors strutted their stuff.
The very best bit is yet another invented condition used to bludgeon disagreement with the cause:
"But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged"
Whoever came up with that has an assured future in Hollywood, where they make up phrases and sentences, which have no foundation and which mean precisely nothing, on the trot!
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@mick-gold-coast-qld said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
.... I think it was Major Rage, I get lost with the street signs indicating who is responding to who, said:"complete and utter horse shit" and I say he has pronounced that accurately.
I have read the accounts here with interest, against the backdrop of some years of history, watching, for example, during my professional cadetship from the upper floors of the South African Airways Building in Elizabeth Street, Sydney as the '71 tour protestors strutted their stuff.
The very best bit is yet another invented condition used to bludgeon disagreement with the cause:
"But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged"
Whoever came up with that has an assured future in Hollywood, where they make up phrases and sentences, which have no foundation and which mean precisely nothing, on the trot!
Ambiguous - it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Micro-aggression - I heard the other day on the radio that you can't ask an Italian where the best Italian restaurant is anymore because stereotyping is a form unconscious bias. The caller then surpassed herself by saying that it is ok to ask a Scot what is the best whisky to drink because most Scots drink whisky. So "unexamined unintentional disrespect" is completely in the eye of the beholder and can be used as a weapon to wield at will on unsuspecting people based on whatever grievance you are carrying at the time.
Honestly - we have too much time on our hands nowadays.
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@mick-gold-coast-qld shoehorning a yarn about how you once watched from afar as other people protested Apartheid as your framing for thinking about this situation is next level fishing.
I salute you.
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@majorrage said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
TL;DR second paragraph good point. Rest complete and utter horse shit.
Good Nigel Owens impersonation there. Major.
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@sidbarret said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
I think you are being a little too subtle with your trolling here 😁
Hahaha. Not a trolling attempt. Although I have appreciated all the responses and their views expressed.
I have simply removed / attempted to remove the “Rassie did right / did wrong/ should’ve/ should not have “ element from my view of the events and tried to distill it into a few facts …. As I see them
I don’t mind if people don’t agree.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb sorry mate, can't agree with your points then.
1 - yeah so, last time I checked the final whistle went and we had less points than the lions. It doesn't matter now what we're mistakes were made and not made. I believe but for those mistakes we would have won, but nothing done afterwards is going to change that.
2 - we won games two and three but the reffing wasn't great, did we benefit from the refereeing, I don't know*. Was it influenced by Rassie's video - I hope not as it only enforces the bullshit that was coming from both sides.
- Anyone complaining about calls going SA way in game 2 and 3 can watch the first tackle of game two and then fuck right off.
3 - short term maybe - but in his current role we need to evaluate his performance in 5 years time and not just the Boks but all elite rugby in the country, and I am not sure I agree with a couple his calls in that regard.
Also, there are some legitimate complaints about the vibe around Springbok team. They are overblown and hystrionic but there are little bits of truth to them. If they don't fix it or become super dominant it is going to catch up with the team eventually.
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@sidbarret said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@billy-webb sorry mate, can't agree with your points then.
1 - yeah so, last time I checked the final whistle went and we had less points than the lions. It doesn't matter now what we're mistakes were made and not made. I believe but for those mistakes we would have won, but nothing done afterwards is going to change that.
2 - we won games two and three but the reffing wasn't great, did we benefit from the refereeing, I don't know*. Was it influenced by Rassie's video - I hope not as it only enforces the bullshit that was coming from both sides.
- Anyone complaining about calls going SA way in game 2 and 3 can watch the first tackle of game two and then fuck right off.
3 - short term maybe - but in his current role we need to evaluate his performance in 5 years time and not just the Boks but all elite rugby in the country, and I am not sure I agree with a couple his calls in that regard.
Also, there are some legitimate complaints about the vibe around Springbok team. They are overblown and hystrionic but there are little bits of truth to them. If they don't fix it or become super dominant it is going to catch up with the team eventually.
"Also, there are some legitimate complaints about the vibe around Springbok team. They are overblown and hystrionic but there are little bits of truth to them. If they don't fix it or become super dominant it is going to catch up with the team eventually."
Care to elaborate a bit on this Sid?
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@mick-gold-coast-qld shoehorning a yarn about how you once watched from afar as other people protested Apartheid as your framing for thinking about this situation is next level fishing.
I salute you.
Your obfuscation leaves me quite bewildered.
I reflect briefly on what my eyes have seen over time, state that I have found the various opinions offered here (politely, I am pleased to say) interesting; and mock the dialect employed by internet posters on a mission, any mission - which was my primary reason for posting in the first place.
You craft fiction "shoehorning a yarn ... once watched from afar as other people protested ... your framing for thinking" ... eh?; and "fishing" - for what?
I am happy to argue the toss about all manner of things with my mates over a lazy beer, a known and credible environment. Internet forums do not offer that.
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@derpus said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
What's with the Lions tours becoming so bad natured? Or has it always been this way.
What a good observation! We have tours over here where the supporters wait and queue and miss the rent so that they can pay for tickets, in delight and keen anticipation of the contest. It is "good natured" from start to finish.
Last time they were here in 2013 the British and Irish Lions played from one side of the country to the other - nine games against just about anyone who could scrape together a team - and the mob loved it. We got to see George Smith again - a real player 'n all. They won almost all of them, but the mob loved it still!
You'd reckon the South Africans would be pleased to welcome anyone who bothered to pay them a visit!
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@mick-gold-coast-qld said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@derpus said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
What's with the Lions tours becoming so bad natured? Or has it always been this way.
What a good observation! We have tours over here where the supporters wait and queue and miss the rent so that they can pay for tickets, in delight and keen anticipation of the contest. It is "good natured" from start to finish.
Last time they were here in 2013 the British and Irish Lions played from one side of the country to the other - nine games against just about anyone who could scrape together a team - and the mob loved it. We got to see George Smith again - a real player 'n all. They won almost all of them, but the mob loved it still!
You'd reckon the South Africans would be pleased to welcome anyone who bothered to pay them a visit!
Not quite comparable. No traveling fans allowed. No crowds.
Normally, it is actually very festive off the field. -
@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@mick-gold-coast-qld said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@derpus said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
What's with the Lions tours becoming so bad natured? Or has it always been this way.
What a good observation! We have tours over here where the supporters wait and queue and miss the rent so that they can pay for tickets, in delight and keen anticipation of the contest. It is "good natured" from start to finish.
Last time they were here in 2013 the British and Irish Lions played from one side of the country to the other - nine games against just about anyone who could scrape together a team - and the mob loved it. We got to see George Smith again - a real player 'n all. They won almost all of them, but the mob loved it still!
You'd reckon the South Africans would be pleased to welcome anyone who bothered to pay them a visit!
Not quite comparable. No traveling fans allowed. No crowds.
Normally, it is actually very festive off the field.Yeah that honestly looked like shit on TV. Having attended a few Lions games now it needs the crowd.
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@billy-webb @Derpus @Mick-Gold-Coast-QLD
From all I’ve heard from travelling Lions supporters the general welcome around the country and at the games is fantastic, be it SA, Aus or NZ. Virtually without exception. The media starts off viewing things in a very welcoming manner before rubbishing the squad selection and coaching team and the descends into ever deeper levels of vitriol. Again this is pretty much the same for each country . This seemed to have its birth in the ‘89 tour to Aus. The unfriendly side of the rival coaching teams has increased more or less year on year since 2005 and I think Woodward’s approach had a lot to do with this. Gatland has been upping the ante since. McGeechan the only outlier. Rassie has just taken things nuclear.
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@catogrande
Excellent post. Spot on in all regards. -
@derpus said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
What's with the Lions tours becoming so bad natured? Or has it always been this way.
Weirdly, it seems to be related to the success of the BIL teams and vice-versa. The more successful the team is, the more popular - '71 Lions, 2013, 1993 and to a lesser extent 2017. Crap teams like Woodwhinge's are at the other end of the likeability scale
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@catogrande said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
McGeechan the only outlier
Great guy and one of my top 5 coaches. Love the (poss. apocryphal) story about the '05 Lions management being booed as they walked into a hotel - except McGeechan who got a big round of applause.
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@stodders the two things that stick out are the stoppages and that incident where the s&c coach got told off in NZ2.
Townsend had a bit of wingh this week about his players being sledged from the sidelines by the SA support staff (though I think he missed the actual sledge - the comments were in Afrikaans and half his team understood what was said - call it a meta sledge).
It's all very class stuff.
If you win it's fine (see Aussie cricket circa 2003) but if lose or are just average you soon become Aussie cricket in 2018.
