All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Judging by Foster's comments recently I doubt we are going to see much change in the 23 apart from enforced ones.
Starting Smith is definitely an option, so is another rejig of the loosies. The midfield/bench is an enforced change as is the playmaker cover.
I expect to see something close to....
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Joe Moody
-
Dane Coles
-
Nepo Laulala
-
Brodie Retallick
-
Samuel Whitelock – captain
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Dalton Papalii
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Sam Cane
-
Ardie Savea
-
Aaron Smith1
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Richie Mo’unga
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Sevu Reece
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Quinn Tupaea
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Rieko Ioane (45)
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Will Jordan
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Jordie Barrett
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Samisoni Taukei'aho
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Karl Tu’inukuafe
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Ofa Tuungafasi
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Tupou Vaa’i
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Akira Ioane
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TJ Perenara
-
David Havili
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Damien McKenzie
I really really don’t see the point of tu’inukuafe. It was a heartwarming little story at the start when he first made the ABs but he is just not good enough.
The props need a big overhaul imho, a real weakness at the moment.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
I don't think people are saying Razor isn't good enough to be AB coach, but pointing out that because a player looks great at SR level under Robertson, it doesn't follow he'll be a great player under Robertson at Test level
that wasn't the argument,It started with Crucial saying Razor should not be coach because in his opinion the Crusaders players have flaws due to Razor.
So I put the counter argument they play well under Razor so how can you make that assumption. -
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Judging by Foster's comments recently I doubt we are going to see much change in the 23 apart from enforced ones.
Starting Smith is definitely an option, so is another rejig of the loosies. The midfield/bench is an enforced change as is the playmaker cover.
I expect to see something close to....
-
Joe Moody
-
Dane Coles
-
Nepo Laulala
-
Brodie Retallick
-
Samuel Whitelock – captain
-
Dalton Papalii
-
Sam Cane
-
Ardie Savea
-
Aaron Smith1
-
Richie Mo’unga
-
Sevu Reece
-
Quinn Tupaea
-
Rieko Ioane (45)
-
Will Jordan
-
Jordie Barrett
-
Samisoni Taukei'aho
-
Karl Tu’inukuafe
-
Ofa Tuungafasi
-
Tupou Vaa’i
-
Akira Ioane
-
TJ Perenara
-
David Havili
-
Damien McKenzie
I really really don’t see the point of tu’inukuafe. It was a heartwarming little story at the start when he first made the ABs but he is just not good enough.
The props need a big overhaul imho, a real weakness at the moment.
I agree Laulala has also been poor time for both to go.
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that wasn't the argument,It started with Crucial saying Razor should not be coach because in his opinion the Crusaders players have flaws due to Razor.
So I put the counter argument they play well under Razor so how can you make that assumption.
I think it's reasonable to argue that flaws, which might not be that damaging at a lower level, might be at a higher level. That was the argument used when Foster's appointment was criticised
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
We missed a trick by not selecting Leicester F On this tour, he is the most destructive player at centre in NZ IMO.
He could be a power house in the AB's he certainly would get over the advantage line.Any other average Crusaders you think should be in the ABs?
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers. -
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
We missed a trick by not selecting Leicester F On this tour, he is the most destructive player at centre in NZ IMO.
He could be a power house in the AB's he certainly would get over the advantage line.Any other average Crusaders you think should be in the ABs?
Yep put them all in, put Razor as coach and you keep winning simple formula.
keep the Blues players away from the AB"s and you win everything.after all the Blues have a Crusader as coach and you are grabbing players out of Razor's Crusaders run and selected academy. So Razor is propping up the Blues as well. The man is a legend.
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@chris I think right now, he is the type of physical player the ABs need, someone that will always attract multiple defenders as well as taking more than one to bring him down, he'd have been fine at 11, and we could have used him as a first/2nd receiver to set up phase play.
We are severely lacking in real punch in the backs at the moment, lightest back division in some time.
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Judging by Foster's comments recently I doubt we are going to see much change in the 23 apart from enforced ones.
Starting Smith is definitely an option, so is another rejig of the loosies. The midfield/bench is an enforced change as is the playmaker cover.
I expect to see something close to....
-
Joe Moody
-
Dane Coles
-
Nepo Laulala
-
Brodie Retallick
-
Samuel Whitelock – captain
-
Dalton Papalii
-
Sam Cane
-
Ardie Savea
-
Aaron Smith1
-
Richie Mo’unga
-
Sevu Reece
-
Quinn Tupaea
-
Rieko Ioane (45)
-
Will Jordan
-
Jordie Barrett
-
Samisoni Taukei'aho
-
Karl Tu’inukuafe
-
Ofa Tuungafasi
-
Tupou Vaa’i
-
Akira Ioane
-
TJ Perenara
-
David Havili
-
Damien McKenzie
I really really don’t see the point of tu’inukuafe. It was a heartwarming little story at the start when he first made the ABs but he is just not good enough.
For some reason he looks amazingly unfit on the field.
The props need a big overhaul imho, a real weakness at the moment.
I find it odd that of all countries, it's NZ that has an issue finding props who can scrum and run with the ball.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris I think right now, he is the type of physical player the ABs need, someone that will always attract multiple defenders as well as taking more than one to bring him down, he'd have been fine at 11, and we could have used him as a first/2nd receiver to set up phase play.
We are severely lacking in real punch in the backs at the moment, lightest back division in some time.
I agree Leicester F seems the best option for the sort of player.The Forwards would love him. .
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
Good point then he took over a struggling Crusaders under Blackadder and turned them into a team that won 5 titles in a row.Straight away.
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I don't necessarily disagree but reserve the right to question whether he is the BEST choice when there is a strong likelihood that he will continue the selection of players that have proven to be defective.
If he can bring in a different style that plays to their strengths and doesn't expose their weaknesses then fair enough. I'm just asking the question. -
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I don't necessarily disagree but reserve the right to question whether he is the BEST choice when there is a strong likelihood that he will continue the selection of players that have proven to be defective.
If he can bring in a different style that plays to their strengths and doesn't expose their weaknesses then fair enough. I'm just asking the question.Well we won't know unless he gets a chance.He might have a different idea for international rugby than the Crusaders.
One of his strengths is bringing in other good coaches to cover all the bases.
So I think we would get a great coaching team not just razor. -
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
He also coached the U20s to their worst finish (until Philpott, who also won the title) the following year. Ironically, I remember the 2016 U20 forward pack being outmuscled by Ireland.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
He also coached the U20s to their worst finish (until Philpott, who also won the title) the following year. Ironically, I remember the 2016 U20 forward pack being outmuscled by Ireland.
Coaching U/20s is tough as you have a limited player pool, depending on the strength of players in the particular age groups coming through.The years are inclined to go in cycles one or 2 good years then some bad ones.
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