All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
-
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Code of Conduct needs updating?
Yeah. I just think it sets a bad example and a symptom of something poss. not quite right in NZ rugby.
There's a balance to be struck between someone going thru a rough time which might spill into bad behaviour (Jimmy Cowan or Zac Guildford) and out and out assault.
-
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Well two of them didn't get on the field.....
Exactly.
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
Reece was with Waikato at the time, and had his Irish contract cancelled. Crusaders did give him a life line, but the All Blacks didn't pick him up immediately that year!
He was shit in the WC, but at least that was after a year of super rugby first.
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
A guy who punches out men and a women outside bars? Straight back into the team and embraced without any consequences. He's never fired a shot at test level but he's part of the family, one of the good guys. Only some kind of hysteric would claim that the head coach had any choice in that decision!
To be fair, Robertson didn't kick Sevu Reece out of the Crusaders either when he assaulted a woman, but I take your point - so much for the "no dickheads" policy
So who sets the rules on managing this sort of thing in NZ rugby? Is it down to coaches like Foster and Robertson to decide or should there be some national policy at the top levels?
Reece wasn't in the Crusaders when that happened they picked up after that incident.Pretty hard for Robertson to throw the guy out when he wasn't there in the first place.
-
True. My bad.
But Robertson picked him when others rejected him, saying he needed a second chance. Fair enough, but there needs to be some consistency in selecting someone who assaults woman.
-
@victor-meldrew Well maybe not in the same fucking season for a start
-
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Well maybe not in the same fucking season for a start
I just wouldn't have Frizzell anywhere near an AB team - same season or not.
-
Some positives to note:
-
Scrum has been stable, sometimes destructive.
-
Lineout has been better than in RC, but still not near the levels it was 3-4 years ago when it was best in the world. Read is a big loss in this regard - he was a world class lineout operator.
-
Papali'i has played some good rugby and deserves his place.
-
The legend of Samisoni has grown in his absence from the team. He does look a real gem though.
-
I thought there were times when ABs actually had the ball and didn't kick it away that they looked threatening. This was especially true when punching up around the fringes with runners hitting the line at pace.
-
Discipline - ABs gave Ireland too many opportunities to kick for territory or posts as a result of gifting penalties. Was this a result of panicking? Maybe. But cut the penalties by even 25% and Ireland are playing more from the middle third of the pitch.
-
ABs still have more players capable of producing moments of quality than other teams. Yes, it is individual moments, but imagine this place if that was absent too 😁
-
ABs are missing Aaron Smith and Sam Cane. Two leaders. You still have them to come back. It won't solve all the issues that have been discussed above, but they will add some steel and finesse to the team.
Issues:
The lack of physicality has been spoken of as nauseum above. I don't think the ABs lack physical players, but there appears to the outside eye (mine) to be a lack of hunger for the dirty work. Clearouts, pick and gos, trucking the ball up into contact whilst seeking to dominate the tackler(s). Sucking defences in. Rugby isn't all about offloads, tackle busts and sexy tries scored within 4 phases 😁.
-
Kicking game (or lack thereof). ABs used to have one of the most aggressive kicking games around. It forced the opposition to make decisions and usually resulted in territorial gains. TJ didn't clear well yesterday when under pressure. It invited more pressure. Barrett/Mo'unga and J Barrett didn't clear well either. And there were several opportunities for a 50:22 and nobody even attempted it. Ireland weren't placed under much pressure. When they were, they were as susceptible as the ABs to cracking.
-
Backline attack - it is rare to see an AB backline look so disjointed. Surprise? In some ways no. Barrett went off injured which left TJ with Mo'unga (no real history of playing together and TJ's passing doesn't suit Mo'unga's style). ALB was lost which left Havilii with Mo'unga inside and Rieko Ioane outside. That's a 10/12/13 with no experience of playing together in a match that was crying out for cohesive combinations. I thought the back 3 went ok in the circumstances. Havilii set up the Jordan break with a lovely pass over the top prior to the chip and chase. He picked the wrong option after the Savea break when he tried a similar pass that Lowe brilliantly read. A short pop to TJ was probably the better option as there was support on hand.
-
-
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@arhs said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
the coaches did their best to keep everyone involved and to build combinations
That... is not in any way true. It has been rotation city.
And why leave guys on the bench? Fresh legs. Change the attack pattern. Give Christie a shot.
Losses will happen, sure, but the way in which losses are happening illustrate something isn't quite right, and hasn't been for some time.
It's been happening since the 2019 SF. No plan B when things slide sideways
It's actually way earlier than that, it was just disguised
And in all honesty not many teams have more than 1 plan they are really comfortable with. It's just that our plan A is not that great
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nta TJP and Codie should’ve been subbed early in the 2nd half. That is on the coaches
Another bugbear of mine. Our bench players often have little impact when they come on compared to the past.
Because they are not as good
Did anyone think "fuck, we need really need to get Va'ai and Christie put there to inject some shit"?
Our talent pool is not there my guys. Our national program, and the player drain is fucking us
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
True. My bad.
But Robertson picked him when others rejected him, saying he needed a second chance. Fair enough, but there needs to be some consistency in selecting someone who assaults woman.
Sure but he has turned that around even the victim his wife is still with him and has even him that chance.And he has been worth it for the Crusaders with his form.
-
Unlike some of you I'm not going to pretend I give even one shit about his off field indiscretion.
He's a decent player being used poorly, who makes a lot of errors other players would be crucified for.
But at least he's having a crack, would keep.
-
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
- I thought there were times when ABs actually had the ball and didn't kick it away that they looked threatening. This was especially true when punching up around the fringes with runners hitting the line at pace.
Yeah, it was so weird that they persisted with the up and unders and loopy backline passes, when the few times they did attack with one off forward runners or pick and goes it actually seemed to work out OK
-
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
True. My bad.
But Robertson picked him when others rejected him, saying he needed a second chance. Fair enough, but there needs to be some consistency in selecting someone who assaults woman.
Sure but he has turned that around even the victim his wife is still with him and has even him that chance.And he has been worth it for the Crusaders with his form.
By all means give someone a second chance but we need to be consistent on judging coaches for selecting players with poor off-field activities.
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
It's just that our plan A is not that great
We have a Plan A?
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
It's just that our plan A is not that great
We have a Plan A?
Yes. Defend, turnover, then score a dazzler from 70m. No? 😁
In all seriousness, the set piece is good, but i've not seen enough good strike moves off first phase possession really challenging the defensive line. When ABs have, they have carved openings against good defences (think Boks second test and this test against Ireland).
I would hope the coaches are looking at the team's reluctance to hold onto the ball. If kicking away, it has to be contestable and the defence needs to be forcing the opposition to earn their metres and force mistakes.
Keep it simple. Less hail Mary low percentage plays
-
So sincere questions for the Fern:
-
Are there any players not in the current AB squad that you believe would make a difference? What do you think they would offer above the existing players in their position?
-
Assuming the answer to 1 isn't an extensive list, do you believe the current set of players have the conditioning to play a more forward, attritional style of game?
-
Assuming the ABs need to bulk up to meet the challenge of Ireland, SA and England, is the major work not in the hands of Nic Gill in terms of changing the physique of the ABs to suit that type of game? Or do you believe it is more a question of mentality that the ABs are lacking right now in terms of how they are approaching the challenge of owning the collisions (both forwards and backs)?
-
Is there a foreign born coach that you would select to mould the ABs into a world beating outfit? If so, who? Of course, I know there are lots of v good NZ coaches available. I'm thinking of the angle of someone from outside the NZ bubble being able to make cold, hard decisions without any bias.
-
-
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
-
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
While NZ sides by and large play the same style of footy, I mean for years our front row was only reading from the Cron book of scrummaging.
But I think the Crusaders have largely tried to play thier own way (more often good than bad) and often get criticised for it, but they play to win...kiwi fans have been lead down the path that winning ugly ain't the best way to win.
Hopefully Schmidt with his NH experience will give the blues another dimension, given it is a team chock full of runners, if they can get thier pack humming they could be awesome.
Is Gats back this year, to focus on the Chiefs now? He doesn't become a shit coach, but he needs to be involved, hands on not by zoom...zoom meetings suck.
So right now things are pretty shit, but hopefully the clouds look to be parting slightly and a glimmer of blue sky creeping through for super rugby to be a bit more of a breeding ground...then these good players end up in black aaaanndd...
We used to own the final quarter, even when behind we more often came back, now our bench is more often than not a big step down, less cohesion, no impact, full disruption.
In last ten, the Saders' do what is needed to win mentality would have helped. With Sam, Richie and Havili I might have hoped som ethat would have rubbed off on ABs.
-
@pakman said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think it was well summarised above, we have an Australian forward back. Playing too many sevens, no ball runners and no physicality.
Teams like England, SA and now the Irish know they can just beat us up front and it doesn’t matter who is in the backs.
Missed ST on the bench, probably Ofa too, Akira should have started and we are screwed at lock as Brodie is not the player he was.
Would have been the perfect game to start Coles as well, for that oft used word mongrel.
When Coles comes on and the rugby intelligence increases you know that the starting XV was wrong.
For all the gnashing of teeth though I would put money on us still winning that with Smith and BB in the halves and ALB staying on.
We probably lost the two backs that could have assessed stuff and adjusted.
Sliding doors moment was the forward pass try. There was just no need to force the pass forward. Akira was clean through regardless.
Other area to consider is ABs conceded 15 points without reply at beginning of 2nd half. Boks did the same to them at beginning of second test in RC this year. Have teams spotted something in NZ at beginning of 2nd half to exploit?
I was also reflecting on that this morning. We used to be deadly in first five minutes of second.
Is that not a sign of mental tiredness?
