2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

Bones

So this means the SA leg of the 7's series is canned?

RaGe_X

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="574808" data-time="1461589318">
<div>
So this means the SA leg of the 7's series is canned?
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 
â€œThere is no question that we have more work to do and we could be moving faster, but our sport has undergone a major overhaul in how we do business and how we measure ourselves in the past two or three years and we have definitely made great progress.
â€œTransformation is a key strategic imperative for SA Rugby to remain competitive and to survive in the sports landscape in our country. 
â€œOur barometre for 2015 shows that we have achieved our target in 11 out of 13 dimensions as agreed with government.
â€œWe have made further progress on and off the field in 2016 to date and over the coming months our commitment to transformation will become even more evident.
â€œWe are confident that the suspension will be lifted at the next reporting of the EPG.â€
Roux confirmed that the ministerâ€™s announcement did not relate to existing international events such as Vodacom Super Rugby, the Springboksâ€™ Incoming Test Series, the Rugby Championship or the HSBC Cape Town Sevens.
He said that SA Rugby planned to engage the minister on the organisationâ€™s hopes of hosting the 2023 Rugby World Cup to fully understand the implications.
The bidding process is due to start next month but will not conclude until next year, by which time SA Rugby hopes to have had the right to host reinstated.
</blockquote>

bbarcs

Jacques Kallis said it best. Embarrassed to be South African. Politicians patting each other on the back and making deals to settle scores. So pathetic.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="574806" data-time="1461587311">
<div>
"I have resolved to revoke the privilege of Athletics South Africa (ASA), Cricket South Africa (CSA), Netball South Africa (NSA) and South African Rugby (SARU) to host and bid for major and mega international tournaments in the Republic of South Africa as a consequence of the aforementioned federations, not meeting their own set transformation targets with immediate effect," Mbalula said on Monday.
 
"In respect of the South African Football Association, I am delighted that SAFA has met its transformation targets. I will, however, issue a Ministerial directive to SAFA as a consequence of their poor drive to penetrate and roll out football in former Model C schools and private schools," said Mbalula.
 
Transformation targets is Zulu for brown paper bags huh?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
so there is no pressure on them to set these targets? Instead of picking the best players, they have taken on themselves to choose a 'transformational' team that may or may not see them pick the best team...

No Quarter

That sucks. Feel for you SA boys having to put up with that sort of utter nonsense when all you want to do is support the best players represent your country. Ridiculous :idiot2:

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="bbarcs" data-cid="574861" data-time="1461630357">
<div>
Jacques Kallis said it best. Embarrassed to be South African. Politicians patting each other on the back and making deals to settle scores. So pathetic.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I saw something on twitter about the ANC's 1971 statement on racism - to the effect of "sportsmen have a special duty in this regard" and references the Olympic Charter.
 
Fucked up.

Rembrandt

Holy hell that's absurd!
 
Also its quiet at work and I just caught up on this thread which I somehow missed scary stuff!

bbarcs

I don't wish being a Springbok supporter on anyone. 
In fact I hope that they ruin things to such an extent that I'll finally be able to move on. 
Springbok tests mean little these days. All you need to know is that the Springboks will never again be allowed to pick their strongest team. 
And that "transformation" means representative of the country's demographics. Meaning for the current base of players they'll be harping on until you can only pick one of Bismarck du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Duane Vermeulen, HandrÃ© Pollard...... 
Responsible transformation could actually have strengthened the Bok side. 
But these muppets have lost the plot.

RaGe_X

Even without Quota's we would struggle to beat the AB's, we would be more competitive than we currently are though. So it's the spectators that are set to lose out.

Chris B.

Without trying to buy a fight, I'm not sure it's really that fucked.
 
Which tournaments is this really going to affect? I'd say it's more the politicians signalling that they want more done.
 
Rugby has its own special challenges in terms of the physique required to play the game, but those don't apply significantly to cricket and there's still very few black players in the SA cricket team. That article says 84% of the population under 18 is black and yet, I think there was only two black players in the last Proteas' test XI. If everyone was getting a reasonably even chance you'd expect about eight.
 
Certainly sucks if you're a supporter and I'm not remotely up with the play on score settling, corruption and other shit that may be going down in South Africa. But there's an unfortunate price to be paid for inheriting a shithouse apartheid system.
 
Here comes a flaming. :)

Bones

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="574997" data-time="1461654679">That article says 84% of the population under 18 is black and yet, I think there was only two black players in the last Proteas' test XI. If everyone was getting a reasonably even chance you'd expect about eight.</blockquote>
 
Hmmm...maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but isn't that like say the All Blacks should be 3 Maori/PI, an Asian and the rest pakeha?

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="575001" data-time="1461655464">
<div>

Hmmm...maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but isn't that like say the All Blacks should be 3 Maori/PI, an Asian and the rest pakeha?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Absolutely not - I already noted the physical challenges associated with rugby. There also seem to be cultural preferences associated with various sports - we might wait quite a long time for an Indian AB.
 
In South Africa it's pretty clear that economics plays a much more significant role in opportunities to play sport than in NZ.
 
So yes, you have the wrong end of the stick - probably purposefully. :)

RaGe_X

Agreed, Lets dump the responsibility squarely on the Private body SARU/CSA/ASA for department of sport/edumacation lack of transformation efforts. The company that won a tender to provide textbooks to a portion of Kzn schools for 16Mill are yet to deliver one book for the 2016 school year.. :truce:

Billy Webb

There are local government elections in August - so I am not surprised by the timing nor content of the ministers comment.
Anything to deflect attention from the fact that under Zuma the government has degenerated to being a rubber stamp for corruption and cronyism to line and stuff the pockets of a few while ignoring the very fundamental needs of the many. The hope would be that by playing the race card - again - the growing number of the ANC's own voting base who are disillusioned with their lack of delivery are distracted enough to vote for them one more time.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="574997" data-time="1461654679">
<div>
Without trying to buy a fight, I'm not sure it's really that fucked.
 
Which tournaments is this really going to affect? I'd say it's more the politicians signalling that they want more done.
 
Rugby has its own special challenges in terms of the physique required to play the game, but those don't apply significantly to cricket and there's still very few black players in the SA cricket team. That article says 84% of the population under 18 is black and yet, I think there was only two black players in the last Proteas' test XI. If everyone was getting a reasonably even chance you'd expect about eight.
 
Certainly sucks if you're a supporter and I'm not remotely up with the play on score settling, corruption and other shit that may be going down in South Africa. But there's an unfortunate price to be paid for inheriting a shithouse apartheid system.
 
Here comes a flaming. :)
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Chris, I'm not overly qualified to respond but that won't stop me. I worked for a Sth African company for a while and travelled with coworkers a lot allowing for many an after hours beer and a yarn in SA and abroad
 
I read your post and thought "bloody good points and a fair call"
 
Like most things it all breaks down because (in my opinion I stress) the people calling for these changes aren't fair dinkum and there are few practical processes to even make it happen, even with the best intentions in the world.
 
Wouldn't be surprised if employees of Cricket SA (of all creeds) would love to have a better representation (for sustainability if nothing else) but the funding, organisation and logistics have been scuppered (or "misappropriated") by the very twats who are screaming for it to happen
 
Think it might be fucked from the start and mostly rotten from the administration level
 
Happy to be corrected Sth African ferners
 
Controversial opinion - the white South Africans I know are the "least racist" people I've ever met and generally don't really see skin colour, but they don't suffer fools

SidBarret

If there is a topic that will bring me out of hiding (lurking), it is this one.
 
Before going further, I must agree with Billy Web when he says that this is simple case of race baiting. Since the beginning of the year there has been a number of "race" scandals in the SA media that has made me (as a white South African) feel very uncomfortable. I consider myself pretty progressive and I believe that many other white saffers are too quick to see the worst in the country and the actions of the government and the governing party, but in this case I kinda feel "just because you are paranoid..." . 
 
Let's get one thing clear, this announcement is aimed directly at rugby. The punitive* measure imposed has no effect on the other sports. 
 
As a person that supports transformation of rugby in South Africa this announcement saddens me I see it as step in the opposite direction. By taking this step, the government is solidifying the "us and them" that needs to be broken down. Breaking up that split is almost the definition of transformation in my opinion, but that is different discussion. 
 
It further saddens me that it comes at a time when we are seeing genuine positive movement at pro level. Does anyone know what a springbok team would look like with a 50% quota? Let me give you a clue, something very similar to the Stormers team that is currently leading the South African conference. Even with in the other teams we are seeing a sea change in the way players of colour are being used. Gone are the days of the two darkies on the wing. And a hypothetical "black"-bok team has never been stronger and frankly pretty good. All in all the system (which I still believe is not set up to support transformation) seems to be making sustainable, positive and healthy progress. More needs to be done to support these changes, but the government's steps here is not the right way.
 
* the actual word used
 
 
Some other random comments - Re Cricket - I think the challenges facing cricket are greater than those facing rugby. A great athlete can become a great rugby player is relatively easy. Cricket is much tougher, more technical and much more expensive (both privately and publicly in terms of facilities). What we have seen in cricket is far more star players emerging but fewer solid pros.
 
White saffers being less racist - Hmm... its complicated. I think saffers are more aware of their racism tbh. In my personal experience, and it is a relatively small sample, the only nation that matches us afrikaners for naked racism is the australians. But with nearly every other western group I have come across racist ideas dressed up in polite terms which somehow makes it alright. White Saffer do that far less often as we are more sensitive to the racist undertones that exist and if that is what we mean to communicate we do so openly.

Frank

Questions:
 
What is the current required quota of non-white players in the
-starting 15?
-match-day 23?
 
What is the eventual quota aim and by when?

bbarcs

@Chris B. Please note that on average a white South African has probably 15cm height advantage on their black & coloured counterparts. Dutch heritage my friend. Tall and strong. 
@Frank. The current "quota" at Super rugby level is 35%. No idea what it is at Springbok level because they refuse to admit that it even exists but I'd imagine it will be about the same if not slightly more. It will be 50% by the time the 2019 World Cup comes around. Otherwise you won't see South Africa there. No way. 
Eventual aim.... Same as country's demographics. They've made that clear plenty of times. If South Africa is 5% white and 5% cape coloured then that's the amount that should be in the Springbok squad.

The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa