AB bolters thread
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="573884" data-time="1461245107"><p>
Greg Rawllinson, Kevin O'Neil - basically if you were a lock in that era and you didn't get picked you have every right to feel shafted.</p></blockquote>
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At least Rawlinson was an injury selection. Locks are always injury prone given the body type and position but we had a woeful run with injuries. Just after we found a cornerstone they would get a career threatening multi-year injury like Ryan, Williams, Jack, Robinson to a degree.<br><br>
Thorne and Flavell played lock that year too from memory - hardly ideal RWC preparation. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="African Monkey" data-cid="573889" data-time="1461257966"><p>Not really. He was smashing sides around in 2014.</p></blockquote>
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It was his first super season if I recall and whilst it was a good one, it was still a surprise to many. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="573882" data-time="1461244541">
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<p>Steve Hansen is a waaaay better selector than Henry, who had quite a few hit and misses.</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/playorder.asp?icount=1100#pagestart'>http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/playorder.asp?icount=1100#pagestart</a></p>
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<p>Hansen's selections start with Brodie Retallick so I think 37 new caps under his regime and probably only 4-5 that are a bit questionable. Mainly guys picked in 2013.</p> -
<p>The other image that comes to mind when talking about the lineout from those days way Kev holding his hand up to his ear with a confused look on his face, crowd getting louder, rushing back and throwing a wonky throw down one side of the lineout. Throwing was definitely Kev's main/only? weakness. On the plus side it we got through 2x world cup finals without it sinking us.</p>
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<p>Parsons getting selected at hooker would have to be the most recent bolter/WTF selection for me. Maybe Manu being called into the RWC squad also but that was injury cover.</p>
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<p>There will be a couple of new selections this year with people leaving but not sure they can all be classified as bolters because they have been playing well and are on the radar. D mac, Elliot Dixon etc.</p>
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<p>Scott Barrett might be a semi bolter if he leapfrogs Romano. And any midfielders outside of Crotty, Fekitoa, Ngatai and possibly Moala would class as a bolter for me.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="573882" data-time="1461244541">
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<p>Steve Hansen is a waaaay better selector than Henry, who had quite a few hit and misses.</p>
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<p>Steve Hansen was a selector under Henry. He was primarily a forwards coach under whom too so one would imagine he had a say in at least many of the names being mentioned in this thread.</p>
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<p>Very few backs mentioned through this thread - aside from Toeava who while not the second coming had a respectable AB career. Kudos Smith.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="573998" data-time="1461300538">
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<p>Steve Hansen was a selector under Henry. He was primarily a forwards coach under whom too so one would imagine he had a say in at least many of the names being mentioned in this thread.</p>
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<p>Very few backs mentioned through this thread - aside from Toeava who while not the second coming had a respectable AB career. Kudos Smith.</p>
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<p>The current selection panel are waaaay better selectors than the last selection panel, who had quite a few hit and misses.</p>
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<p>Happy?</p> -
Some of it I'm sure is correlation. In 2012 when blooded some new talent for the next cycle they had the awesome 2011 U20s to choose from plus a few uncapped players from the prev years u20s like J Savea and A Smith.<br><br>
If the World Cup cycle was 2 years later and they were trying to introduce the 2012, 13, 14 U20s in mass - then there would have been a lore more misses.<br><br>
Still, I'm a fan. Best selection panel in my life time. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="573998" data-time="1461300538">
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<p>Steve Hansen was a selector under Henry. He was primarily a forwards coach under whom too so one would imagine he had a say in at least many of the names being mentioned in this thread.</p>
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<p>Very few backs mentioned through this thread - aside from Toeava who while not the second coming had a respectable AB career. Kudos Smith.</p>
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<p>Anesi, Masaga, Stanley (Benson), Saili, Hamilton, Mathewson, Ellison, Senio, Delany ..</p>
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<p>There are tons.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="574010" data-time="1461302182">
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<p>Anesi, Masaga, Stanley (Benson), Saili, Hamilton, Mathewson,<strong> Ellison</strong>, Senio, Delany ..</p>
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<p>There are tons.</p>
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<p>Probably shouldn't be with these guys, likely would have played a bunch more tests if he hadn't have left NZ, then left again.</p> -
Yeah Ellison was class at one stage. But the NZRU rightly got tired of his cherry-picking when he played.
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Yeah, he was on the verge of cracking the first 15 a couple of times but then randomly turned up playing overseas. I found his career difficult to follow. Done well for himself though so can't begrudge him.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="574019" data-time="1461305642">
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<p>Probably shouldn't be with these guys, likely would have played a bunch more tests if he hadn't have left NZ, then left again.</p>
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<p>A bunch? GIven the two incumbents had a mortgage on the 12 and 13 jersey's it's hard to see where he would've got more test time. I think when you consider his age (only a year younger than Nonu) it's probably understandable that he wasn't going to 'wait around' for more opportunities. I thought he was an excellent player when he came back and had the versatility that AB coaches would be excited about for a bench option player. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="574010" data-time="1461302182">
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<p>Anesi, Masaga, Stanley (Benson), Saili, Hamilton, Mathewson, Ellison, Senio, Delany ..</p>
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<p>There are tons.</p>
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<p>None of whom were bolters and were all selections that were largely expected due to being a position where a lot of back up is required (Senio, Matthewson, Delany, many of the locks mentioned in this thread), split squad situations not unlike all the Samoa caps last year (Hamilton), or selections due to injury and they genuinely were next cab off the rank (Stanley, Ellison and to an extent Masaga).</p>
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<p>In most of those cases the option was selecting those players or those of a similar caliber - or literally not picking a squad.</p>
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<p>None of those selections were objectively as bad as say leaving Dagg/Sopoaga/Piatau back home and taking a crippled Naholo to a RWC for example.</p>
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<p>Under Henry's tenure their main flaw was persevering with players that were proven not to be up to test level until it really bit them hard - Donald, Ellis, Flynn etc.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="574176" data-time="1461335379">
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<p>None of whom were bolters and were all selections that were largely expected due to being a position where a lot of back up is required (Senio, Matthewson, Delany, many of the locks mentioned in this thread), split squad situations not unlike all the Samoa caps last year (Hamilton), or selections due to injury and they genuinely were next cab off the rank (Stanley, Ellison and to an extent Masaga).</p>
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<p>In most of those cases the option was selecting those players or those of a similar caliber - or literally not picking a squad.</p>
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<p>None of those selections were objectively as bad as say leaving Dagg/Sopoaga/Piatau back home and taking a crippled Naholo to a RWC for example.</p>
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<p>Under Henry's tenure their main flaw was persevering with players that were proven not to be up to test level until it really bit them hard - Donald, Ellis, Flynn etc.</p>
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<p>I think in Donalds case he kept getting selected when there just wasnt any other options , the cupboard really was bare for a while there , but in the end , being the number 4 and having previous test experience probably saved our arse , its funny how it works out </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="574176" data-time="1461335379">
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<p>None of whom were bolters and were all selections that were largely expected due to being a position where a lot of back up is required (Senio, Matthewson, Delany, many of the locks mentioned in this thread), split squad situations not unlike all the Samoa caps last year (Hamilton), or selections due to injury and they genuinely were next cab off the rank (Stanley, Ellison and to an extent Masaga).</p>
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<p>In most of those cases the option was selecting those players or those of a similar caliber - or literally not picking a squad.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>None of those selections were objectively as bad as say leaving Dagg/Sopoaga/Piatau back home and taking a crippled Naholo to a RWC for example.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Under Henry's tenure their main flaw was persevering with players that were proven not to be up to test level until it really bit them hard - <strong>Donald, Ellis</strong>, Flynn etc.</p>
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<p>You try to make a point about players that weren't up to test level and backfired and two of your examples are guys who came on in the RWC final and played fucking well? Nice job. I'm guessing a lot of other countries teams wish they were bit that hard.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="574176" data-time="1461335379"><p>
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None of those selections were objectively as bad as say leaving Dagg/Sopoaga/Piatau back home and taking a crippled Naholo to a RWC for example.<br>
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Yep, that was such a fatal error, so costly, especially how much they used some of the other players in the squad that were less controversial.... -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="574181" data-time="1461353030">
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<p>You try to make a point about players that weren't up to test level and backfired and two of your examples are guys who came on in the RWC final and played fucking well? Nice job. I'm guessing a lot of other countries teams wish they were bit that hard.</p>
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<p>They played adequately that game, let's not get crazy here. They came on with a 5 point lead and managed to let it only erode to 1 point. I don't think you can let 60 minutes of admittedly high stakes rugby wash away what were otherwise largely poor careers. If you take Ellis for example - in a previous thread we figured out against decent opposition (i.e. teams that have beaten the ABs once) with him on the field we actually were outscored as a total and in all but a few games individually - which is an absolutely staggering achievement for any tenured AB - let alone one playing during such a dominant era.</p>
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<p>Donald is the perfect example really. He was weighed and measured during those two tests in South Africa in 2009 - and should have been exiled at that point. Instead they persevered with him on the 2009 EOYT (although they did take Delany and an injured McAlister - but Donald was the clear back up to Dan). He was underwhelming during Super Rugby in 2010 - people were begging for them to take Slade or Cruden on the 2010 EOYT as insurance - they didn't. Like a bad ex-lover they went back to him for the 2010 EOYT. Then Hong Kong happened and everyone knew he was out of the picture for RWC. Sivi (??) goes down after that game giving them a golden opportunity to call in another back (i.e. Cruden or Slade) and they don't call anyone in. Then when the penny drops during the 2011 Super Season after more chippy nonsense - you end up with 2 test starter Colin Slade backing up and 1 test starter Cruden after that. He had developed a similarly puzzling affection for Guildford that no doubt would have continued had he stayed on.</p>
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<p>Great coach otherwise - I'm probably the biggest Ted fan on here and it is somewhat splitting hairs. And to be fair I thought the Thorn, Kaino & Nonu recalls in 2008 were similar selections at the time - and wanted him to look at newer, younger talent and they turned out to be pretty decent. But at least Kaino and Nonu showed flashes of brilliance in their first stints - it was just consistency. I never saw Ellis/Donald/Flynn and thought he was terribly dynamic even on his best day - Kahn on the other hand.</p>
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<p>Hansen did a much better job spreading the love around and using trial and error to get guys into camp and have a look at them than Ted who kept going back to the same old guys and would only deviate when crisis struck. Flynn was another classic one where we could have been at least trying to groom guys under Hore/Mealamu so the cupboard wasn't totally bare. We only saw guys like de Melmanche or Elliott when injuries or the annual suspensions from the NH press for one of our hookers were handed out. We got lucky with Coles otherwise we would be in trouble. Rueben Thorne was a similar crutch in 2007.</p>
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<p>The outside backs though we generally have been pretty spot on with giving guys enough chance to prove themselves (and in big tests too) and quickly deciding if they are keepers or moving onto the next option.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="574185" data-time="1461356174">
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<p>We got lucky with Coles otherwise we would be in trouble. Rueben Thorne was a similar crutch in 2007.</p>
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<p>I'd disagree with this. Coles for me is an example of how the coaching team identified a player with attributes they liked, and a bunch of things they didn't and how they turned him into a world class rake. That is what really good coaches do - make players better, not just get them to play together.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="574076" data-time="1461313106">
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<p><strong>A bunch?</strong> GIven the two incumbents had a mortgage on the 12 and 13 jersey's it's hard to see where he would've got more test time. I think when you consider his age (only a year younger than Nonu) it's probably understandable that he wasn't going to 'wait around' for more opportunities. I thought he was an excellent player when he came back and had the versatility that AB coaches would be excited about for a bench option player. </p>
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<p>You're being pedantic about the word a bunch? Then you go on and finish your post discussing how much the coaches would like to use him as a bench player? I'd assume they'd use him from the bench a few times during those tests and give him the odd start, and they would add up to a bunch.</p>
