Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?
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@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
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@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
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@crucial said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Another take on Reado's comments.
Maybe we didn't need to look for an ancient ex AB to try and talk sense into the parties. Just a newly retired one.
He's talking shit tho, "New Zealand Rugby to me is saying ‘this is the right option, it’s all we’ve looked at, , this is going to give us our best options’" NZR have looked at loads off other options. A slight finger on the pulse would make that obvious
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@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
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@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I remember the same. Must have had some overseas denominated contracts which they took a position on. Trading with reserves would be different.
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@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
He's talking shit tho, "New Zealand Rugby to me is saying ‘this is the right option, it’s all we’ve looked at, , this is going to give us our best options’" NZR have looked at loads off other options. A slight finger on the pulse would make that obvious
What are the other options? What is the do nothing at this point option?
I'm still yet to see why this influx of capital is necessary. If the straits are so dire could we see at least some rationalization of the bloated professional system.
Even if it were the case that there is some magical way to increase revenues - why does this require vast amounts of capital? The All Blacks are not a resource company that needs to sink billions into a new oil field or coal mine which they will make back over the decades to follow. What possible revenue stream requires any major capital investment - this is an organization which has players play rugby games?
The one possible exception would be if the NZRU were in a crap stadium situation and had massive attendance. Then you could make the case for building a stadium they own which would generate massive additional revenue each year( think England without Twickers, if they had to hand over a big % to the FA every test playing at Wembley) - but that is not even close to the case here.
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@rotated I'm not going to Google all the articles and media releases where NZR listed the options they and their investment team went through. And it includes 'do nothing and go under cos we can't compete with NH wages and grass roots is dying'. But they looked at them, including a version of what the players are suggesting. It came down to silver lake was the best and that was presented to the Unions - who unanimously agreed.
Now I'm not saying it is the best option, I don't know, but to accuse the NZR of just going straight to SL without looking at anything else is utter bollocks ~ Read should be fucking ashamed to spout such bullshit, unless he's lying on purpose. It is showing no respect for a body that had done amazingly well financially over the professional period. No other RU had come close to doing as well as NZ. No other Union had anything close to a big cash buffer like we did when covid hit. Fucks sake, the so called richest Union England had splashed all it's money on random artificial turf throughout the country and was cutting costs and posts before covid hit!
So have a Google for NZR statements, they list all the options they investigated. And read should apologize for talking crap before he actually did some research
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@machpants the threat of players wages is over stated. We are not at some sort of crisis or tipping point. Sure it’s been a trend but they don’t need $380m and selling 12.5% of your revenue for ever is stupid. No one does that.
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@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@machpants the threat of players wages is over stated. We are not at some sort of crisis or tipping point. Sure it’s been a trend but they don’t need $380m and selling 12.5% of your revenue for ever is stupid. No one does that.
It's not stupid at all, 6N and other comps have already done it, selling much higher percentages. Flat out calling what NZR is proposing as stupid or whatever is internet talk. NZR have done their homework, they know all the numbers much better than us, and they think it is the best way going forward. As I said, I don't know, I'm worried about the deal, but blanket 'it's stupid' statements are disrespectful and themselves stupid.
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Behind paywall, but another good explainer
Silver Lake or Forsyth Barr? The pros and cons of two NZ Rugby deals
Is a proposal to float part of NZ Rugby real, or the players flexing their powers?
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@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
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@snowy said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
Yup millions from holding it in USD
@snowy said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
Yup millions from holding payments in USD
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@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@machpants the threat of players wages is over stated. We are not at some sort of crisis or tipping point. Sure it’s been a trend but they don’t need $380m and selling 12.5% of your revenue for ever is stupid. No one does that.
It's not stupid at all, 6N and other comps have already done it, selling much higher percentages. Flat out calling what NZR is proposing as stupid or whatever is internet talk. NZR have done their homework, they know all the numbers much better than us, and they think it is the best way going forward. As I said, I don't know, I'm worried about the deal, but blanket 'it's stupid' statements are disrespectful and themselves stupid.
Ok then. I think it is really really stupid. Tell me exactly what 6 Nations rugby have done - it’s the structure of these deals that is important.
Selling your current secure revenues for new uncertain revenues where the purchaser has all their downside risk mitigated, and where you will employ new unknown 3rd parties to create these new revenues doesn’t sound smart. It’s NZRFU who is taking all the risk - in return it’s getting more money than it needs which will sit in reserves.
The focus in this discussion shouldn’t be on the money, it should be on what this new business model is. If that doesn’t work then it’s a really bad deal. CRICHQ comes to mind. This stuff is hard and risky.
What are these new revenues? Rugby’s traditional revenues streams are competitions, tickets and broadcasting rights. Things like merchandise can grow from that over time but others can do that. The story is not clear - what does access to new markets really mean? gaming ....? Is this partner the right one for this new business?
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@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@snowy said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
Yup millions from holding it in USD
@snowy said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
Yup millions from holding payments in USD
Did you #booboo yourself in the same post? Impressive
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@snowy said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
Yup millions from holding it in USD
@snowy said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kirwan said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Silver Lake are behind the UFC so I assume maximising the worldwide PPV audience is one of the main potential income streams.
As to taking out a loan, NZR has stated why that isn't possible - they have no assets to secure the loan against.
But why do they need $387m now. Putting money into reserves earns you nothing?
Didn't they used to earn money on reserves with investments in currency?
They would have protected against movements where exposed but damn sure they wouldn’t be trading.
That’s the type of shit which brings down businesses.
I just remember them making a decent amount on something they did with how they got paid and what currency it was held in.
Like Homer, I’ve learned something and it’s pushed shit out of my brain.
I haven't read all of the above so might Booboo but yes they were hedging currency risk as TB revenues weren't in NZD IIRC, They ended up with a gain from it.
Yup millions from holding payments in USD
Did you #booboo yourself in the same post? Impressive
I blame the interweb gremlins
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@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@machpants the threat of players wages is over stated. We are not at some sort of crisis or tipping point. Sure it’s been a trend but they don’t need $380m and selling 12.5% of your revenue for ever is stupid. No one does that.
It's not stupid at all, 6N and other comps have already done it, selling much higher percentages. Flat out calling what NZR is proposing as stupid or whatever is internet talk. NZR have done their homework, they know all the numbers much better than us, and they think it is the best way going forward. As I said, I don't know, I'm worried about the deal, but blanket 'it's stupid' statements are disrespectful and themselves stupid.
Point is that the exisiting revenue will be worth more to a party other than Silver Lake. If the USP of SL is growing revenue base then incentivise them on growth.
Fair chance with existing deal Sl will securitise some of revenue stream anyway to recuperate much if not all of investment.
Perhaps NZR should have a chat to Goldman.
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I was reading this article by Knowler in the newspaper over the weekend, which provides more detail about the Silver Lake proposal. Stuff has finally published it online.
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The link appears to be corrupted so text below.
EXPLAINER: Is it worth New Zealand club players, fans and administrators losing sleep over the stoush between NZ Rugby and New Zealand Rugby Players’ Association.
Around 158,000 amateur men, women, boys and girls, backed by a small army of volunteers, family and supporters, trek to rugby fields each weekend simply because they love the game. The words Silver Lake may mean a variety of things to those people, who are the soul of the national sport at the grassroots level. Some may not care that NZ Rugby can’t convince the NZRPA to endorse a deal with US investment giant Silver Lake, which will pay $387.5 million for a 12.5 percent of its net profit. Or, for that matter, care that NZRPA have commissioned an alternative plan with Forsyth Barr which would mean selling 5 percent of NZ Rugby’s revenue-gathering assets to the public and Kiwi institutions via a stock exchange-listed entity. Others from club-land may be much more engaged. Or embarrassed by the way this saga has unfolded in the public eye. Everyone would probably agree on one thing, at least: the future of the game belongs to the generations of Kiwis who have invested time and energy into the sport at all levels. And that starts with the clubs, tiny or large, rich or poor, throughout the country.
Let’s talk about money. If NZ Rugby can get the Silver Lake deal across the line, how would that 26 benefit provincial unions and almost 500 clubs?
If the Silver Lake deal was approved, $39 million would be distributed to the provinces and the NZ Maori board. Provincial unions, whose representatives voted in favour of the Silver Lake deal, would welcome the chance to ease the financial pressure and use that money to develop the amateur game. NZ Rugby wants to invest more in the grassroots and, currently, only about 20 percent of its income gets funnelled in that direction. Roughly speaking, that means around $30m goes to the community game, while about $120 million gets splashed on the professional arm. NZ Rugby also wants to put $100m into a long-term Legacy Fund which would be set-up to hold sufficient cash reserves for investment in the community game.How does the Legacy Fund work?
The Legacy Fund is an endowment fund that NZ Rugby wants to create to support the long-term sustainability of the game. With capital from Silver Lake, and future profits, it hopes to grow the fund to over $200m in the next couple of years. It’s intended for the $200m capital to remain in the fund for the long-term benefits of the sport. The annual returns on the fund, and NZ Rugby’s profits, would then be reinvested back into the community through investment in capital projects, such as support for new facilities in local communities. For example, if a club wanted to build new clubrooms or a toilet block it could apply to its provincial union to receive money from the Legacy Fund. NZ Rugby also aims to invest more in the female, Māori and Pasifika sides of the game, as well as do more around teenage recruitment.Forsyth Barr has provided an alternative option to the Silver Lake offer. How would that benefit the provinces and clubs?
Forsyth Barr, which has valued NZ Rugby at $3.8 billion (compared to Silver Lake’s valuation of around $3.1 billion), proposed the sale of a 5 percent stake in future commercial revenues through an NZX listing. Based on that valuation, Forsyth Barr believes between $170m-$190m could be raised. Under the NZRPA/Forsyth Barr model $39m would also be distributed to the provinces and the NZ Māori board. However, it wouldn’t set up a Legacy Fund. “Rather than relying on interest income from a Legacy Fund to benefit the community game, NZR retains an additional 7.5 percent of revenue,’’ NZRPA stated in a letter delivered to NZ Rugby and provincial unions last week. It also stated that “over time’’ NZ Rugby, given starting reserves of $136-$154 million, would be able to establish a Legacy Fund.Why should anyone affiliated to a club in New Zealand care about the Silver Lake saga?
At the end of the day it is about control. Silver Lake is in this to make money. No-one should be naive enough to think otherwise. NZ Rugby’s job, whether it be its employees or board members, is to serve all the game’s stakeholders. It's taking a calculated risk by hopping into bed with Silver Lake and hasn’t denied it. But NZ Rugby says it must be prepared to be bold to save the game. NZRPA, which is headed by chief executive Rob Nichol and chairman David Kirk, represents around 270 professional players who, in turn, should expect to be held accountable by the rugby public at all levels. Because if it wasn't for the clubs the current All Blacks, Black Ferns, Super Rugby and sevens players wouldn’t have got a taste for the game that now pays their wages.Since the game went professional in late 1995, money began to flow into the pockets of the players (and administrators) who represented the international, Super Rugby, sevens and provincial teams – thanks to the central contacting system. NZ Rugby picks up the tab for the All Blacks, Super Rugby, Black Ferns and sevens players. It's important to remember, however, that the provincial unions have to pay the wages of their contracted players. And it was the clubs who nurtured them in the first instance. The professional side of the game, and at 1st XV level, is in reasonable shape. But there are concerns about how clubs will fare, and keeping teenagers in the game is a major issue, in the years ahead.
Why is NZ Rugby so obsessed with a private equity deal?
It says it needs money to survive. NZ Rugby says its current model is unsustainable. In their own words, it is “broken’’. If that is the case (and the NZRPA disputes this), then the clubs should be worried. NZ Rugby, outside of when the British and Irish Lions tour every 12 years, struggles to make a profit. NZ Rugby annually ships about $30m to the 26 provincial unions. Amounts vary for each of the unions, depending on a variety of factors, including the number of registered players on their books. NZ Rugby's funding of the provincial unions is split two ways. “Untagged” funding can be spent at the discretion of the provincial unions, while “tagged” funding is granted for specific purposes. If provincial unions receive less money from NZ Rugby, they have to cut costs to survive or find money from somewhere else. Which isn’t good for the clubs.Many feel a deep connection to our top rugby players, especially the All Blacks. Is there a chance the Silver Lake deal, would result in players leaving New Zealand?
Kirk told RNZ last Tuesday that some players had advised NZRPA they wouldn’t want to play in New Zealand if the Silver Lake deal goes ahead. “It is absolutely a worry,’’ Kirk said. “I don’t know what the fans' reaction is going to be. “I know some of the players have said to us ‘I don’t want to play – I don’t want to lace up my boots and play for business owned 12.5 percent (by Silver Lake, who will have the rights to monetise what the players are doing).’’The players, meanwhile, have been mostly evasive when questioned on the topic by reporters. NZ Rugby says the players should have nothing to fear. Silver Lake won’t have a presence on the NZ Rugby board. And the players, NZ Rugby says, won't take a pay cut if the deal goes ahead. If anything, it has stated, they should be better off.
If the Silver Lake deal is approved, will it mean the All Blacks will have to play more games?
NZ Rugby has said no. If anything, the All Blacks will play the same amount of tests each year or fewer. It is adamant player welfare under any new agreement would be paramount. NZ Rugby also disputes suggestions the All Blacks will become a travelling circus and be dragged to far-flung locations to appease Silver Lake’s desire to tap into markets. Tight “controls’’ in a contract would ensure this doesn’t happen, says NZ Rugby. There are concerns, however, that NZ Rugby could be forced to change its stance if a private equity partner doesn’t believe it’s squeezing enough money out of the partnership.The NZRPA has concerns about “cultural misappropriation’’ if Silver Lake is welcomed into the NZ Rugby tent. Is there a risk the haka could be exploited?
NZ Rugby says no. NZ Māori Rugby Board chair Farah Palmer has said protecting the haka would be a major priority. There will likely be “protections’’ within a legal document. Kirk, however, told RNZ that while NZ Rugby will have controls that isn’t to say the haka couldn’t be commercialised, because when a business brings in private equity partners their only motivation is to make money. -
Two points with this ...
@bovidae said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Some may not care that NZ Rugby can’t convince the NZRPA to endorse a deal with US investment giant Silver Lake, which will pay $387.5 million for a 12.5 percent of its net profit.
Pretty sure it's gross profit not net. (Just stating that for fairness, as I'm obviously on record in favour of the SL deal.(
Kirk said. “I don’t know what the fans' reaction is going to be. “I know some of the players have said to us ‘I don’t want to play – I don’t want to lace up my boots and play for business owned 12.5 percent (by Silver Lake, who will have the rights to monetise what the players are doing).’’
Then fuck off overseas where you can get your mercenary $$ from whomever the hell you want, without a single cent of that being invested in NZ rugby , unlike if SL invests heavily in the long term future of the game here.
An obvious, and rather weak, attempt at emotional blackmail.
