2021 Crusaders
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@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@stargazer said in 2021 Crusaders:
I don't think the Crusaders' backrow is half as bad as people are saying. But with Blackadder having relatively few caps for his age due to injury, Grace being 21 years and Christie 23 years old (the top tacler before he got injured, this season), the first choice backrow is pretty green.
Sanders has the expierence at 27, but also breaks regularly, and has been pretty good the last 2 seasons when he played.
Their depth has been lacking with Douglas going downhill since his first year when he replaced injured Kieran Read (2017?). Sione Havili is also only 23, but may not have the potential.
Signing Matera may be a masterstroke. Grace just can't play every game at his age and Matera is a great player he can learn from. In the mean time, Anton Segner and other youngsters coming through can learn as well, before they're thrown into the deep end.
Still not a fan of signing foreign players, but maybe there are not enough good NZ backrowers at the moment?
This is absolute bullshit. The NZRFU talk about looking after Clubs and Provinces yet every decision they make is other arrow to the heart of the clubs and provinces.
This is about another super franchise not wanting to do the hard work to win a competition with local talent. Our SR teams are for developing our players not for coaches to win competitions with foreign players. The NZRFU has lost touch with its communities and just spins corporate bullshit - because it’s now run by Businessmen who want to “grow the game” and they always start at the top, with their trickle down theories. Every year it’s something new - private ownership of Super Rugby teams, Private ownership of the All Blacks.
Between elite school boy rugby, academies, U20 Super Sides, and foreign players the Club/ Province structures that made NZ different and stronger are being eroded. NZ rugby is now all about short term success and a chase for players at increasingly younger (starting with school boys ) ages - it’s the way of professional sport. This while the Provinces chase the crumbs by competing with each other for players and success. What they don’t see is that their position is being eroded because their club and provincial competitions are being made redundant bit by bit with every decision. It’s right there in front of them. Turkeys vote for Xmas all the time.
It happens every season now it seems, As far as my memory can remember these players all played for NZ teams when they were NZ ineligible,Which is want you are saying above as I understand it.
HIGHLANDERS
Kazuki Himeno,Fumiaki Tanaka,James Haskell,Vilimoni Delasau,Seru Rabeni ,Pingi Tala'apitaga
BLUES
Joe Marchant,Christian Califano,,Rupeni Caucaunibuca,,Brian Lima,John Senio ,Apenisa Naevo
CHIEFS
Tyler Arden,Mahonri Schwalger,Junior Poluleuligaga,Matt Symons,Asaeli Tikoirotuma
CRUSADERS
Marika Vunibaka,,Digby Ioane,Nemani Nadolo,Pablo Matera
HURRICANES
Kobus van Wyk,Inoke Afeaki,Sireli Bobo,Alapati Leiua,,Anthony Perenise ,Apisai NaikatiniThere probably is a lot more.
thats not actually that many people when you look at it, any from the Highlanders perspective there is years between Fumi and Himeno...so its not even that regular
Im annoyed...but not because i think the crusaders have done anything wrong...im just sick of them signing good players and winning almost everything!
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@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@stargazer said in 2021 Crusaders:
I don't think the Crusaders' backrow is half as bad as people are saying. But with Blackadder having relatively few caps for his age due to injury, Grace being 21 years and Christie 23 years old (the top tacler before he got injured, this season), the first choice backrow is pretty green.
Sanders has the expierence at 27, but also breaks regularly, and has been pretty good the last 2 seasons when he played.
Their depth has been lacking with Douglas going downhill since his first year when he replaced injured Kieran Read (2017?). Sione Havili is also only 23, but may not have the potential.
Signing Matera may be a masterstroke. Grace just can't play every game at his age and Matera is a great player he can learn from. In the mean time, Anton Segner and other youngsters coming through can learn as well, before they're thrown into the deep end.
Still not a fan of signing foreign players, but maybe there are not enough good NZ backrowers at the moment?
This is absolute bullshit. The NZRFU talk about looking after Clubs and Provinces yet every decision they make is other arrow to the heart of the clubs and provinces.
This is about another super franchise not wanting to do the hard work to win a competition with local talent. Our SR teams are for developing our players not for coaches to win competitions with foreign players. The NZRFU has lost touch with its communities and just spins corporate bullshit - because it’s now run by Businessmen who want to “grow the game” and they always start at the top, with their trickle down theories. Every year it’s something new - private ownership of Super Rugby teams, Private ownership of the All Blacks.
Between elite school boy rugby, academies, U20 Super Sides, and foreign players the Club/ Province structures that made NZ different and stronger are being eroded. NZ rugby is now all about short term success and a chase for players at increasingly younger (starting with school boys ) ages - it’s the way of professional sport. This while the Provinces chase the crumbs by competing with each other for players and success. What they don’t see is that their position is being eroded because their club and provincial competitions are being made redundant bit by bit with every decision. It’s right there in front of them. Turkeys vote for Xmas all the time.
It happens every season now it seems, As far as my memory can remember these players all played for NZ teams when they were NZ ineligible,Which is want you are saying above as I understand it.
HIGHLANDERS
Kazuki Himeno,Fumiaki Tanaka,James Haskell,Vilimoni Delasau,Seru Rabeni ,Pingi Tala'apitaga
BLUES
Joe Marchant,Christian Califano,,Rupeni Caucaunibuca,,Brian Lima,John Senio ,Apenisa Naevo
CHIEFS
Tyler Arden,Mahonri Schwalger,Junior Poluleuligaga,Matt Symons,Asaeli Tikoirotuma
CRUSADERS
Marika Vunibaka,,Digby Ioane,Nemani Nadolo,Pablo Matera
HURRICANES
Kobus van Wyk,Inoke Afeaki,Sireli Bobo,Alapati Leiua,,Anthony Perenise ,Apisai NaikatiniThere probably is a lot more.
I don't recall many, if any, of those signings stirring up the same level of emotion as this one. Understandable, to a point. I'm not overly bothered by foreign signings when there is an apparent need at the franchise. Relative to the Read, McCaw, Todd days, we have a need at the moment and a one year contract such as this is a fair reflection of our current loose forward depth.
Looking at the tier down, there is very little potential SR quality and our current group includes young guys, a waning veteran and some injury magnets. So in the current circumstances I'm all good with this
Every foreign signing in the professional game is a big opportunity missed for a local player. There is no need to sign foreign players because we have lots of NZ talent. It’s total bullshit and if the NZRFU were serious about club/ provincial rugby they would stop it. The fact the provinces don’t jump up and down says a lot about how selfish they all about their own ambitions. Reminds me of George Orwell’s Animal Farm. The rules keep changing to suit the ambitions of those with power... never mind the peasants.
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@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids. And then you have an injury crisis which sees a retired 37 year old loose forward get drafted in. Not every available spot has to go to a kid, just because one is available. And not all are ready for it.
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@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids. And then you have an injury crisis which sees a retired 37 year old loose forward get drafted in. Not every available spot has to go to a kid, just because one is available. And not all are ready for it.
They sign the kids ahead of experienced players to stop other teams picking them - tough luck. They should play the players in their squads. There are more than enough players, they just want what they think (?) will be a better overseas player. Tough they should always have to select the next best NZ rugby player. Our teams are not setup to further the careers of overseas players or the careers of the coaches. Razor is a great coach, so no doubt he can make do.
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@stargazer said in 2021 Crusaders:
@higgins Yes, under World Rugby rules he is, but what are South Africa's selection rules? Do they pick players from overseas who've never played in South Africa?
They might given they relaxed the rules a couple of years ago and removed the 30 test cap requirement.
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@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids. And then you have an injury crisis which sees a retired 37 year old loose forward get drafted in. Not every available spot has to go to a kid, just because one is available. And not all are ready for it.
They sign the kids ahead of experienced players to stop other teams picking them - tough luck. They should play the players in their squads. There are more than enough players, they just want what they think (?) will be a better overseas player. Tough they should always have to select the next best NZ rugby player. Our teams are not setup to further the careers of overseas players or the careers of the coaches. Razor is a great coach, so no doubt he can make do.
Also far too simplistic. The experienced guys who are up to it are either already in SR squads, or they've gone oversees. Who can you name who's experienced and up to it but not getting selected in a squad??
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@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids.
SR squads are weaker than they were a decade ago. Do they have to be as strong as they were? They are still strong compared to other countries clubs/franchises.
There's benefits from dialling back the intensity too - less injuries, longer careers etc -
@duluth said in 2021 Crusaders:
@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids.
SR squads are weaker than they were a decade ago. Do they have to be as strong as they were? They are still strong compared to other countries clubs/franchises.
There's benefits from dialling back the intensity too - less injuries, longer careers etcDialing back the intensity I don’t like the sound of that.
That’s what makes AB rugby great if we do that at SR level it will flow through to The ABs eventually and we will lose our edge. -
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
Dialing back the intensity I don’t like the sound of that.
That’s what makes AB rugby great if we do that at SR level it will flow through to The ABs eventually and we will lose our edge.The season has changed, there's 8 NZ v NZ games in a row. That is an increase in intensity. Having a few more inexperienced players in the mix offsets that slightly.
If your primary concern is the AB's you should worry about foreign players weakening the playing pool. In some positions 3 players will make the AB squad. If one of the 5 starting spots is taken by a foreigner we have 4 candidates starting each week. An injury or two forces the selection of bench players.
I would have a different opinion on foreign players if we had a few more NZ sides
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@duluth said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
Dialing back the intensity I don’t like the sound of that.
That’s what makes AB rugby great if we do that at SR level it will flow through to The ABs eventually and we will lose our edge.The season has changed, there's 8 NZ v NZ games in a row. That is an increase in intensity. Having a few more inexperienced players in the mix offsets that slightly.
If your primary concern is the AB's you should worry about foreign players weakening the playing pool. In some positions 3 players will make the AB squad. If one of the 5 starting spots is taken by a foreigner we have 4 candidates starting each week. An injury or two forces the selection of bench players.
I would have a different opinion on foreign players if we had a few more NZ sides
That will decrease from next season with the new format coming into play.
I am not sure adding players who are not good enough to play in the competition does a lot to strengthen anything.
I would prefer to see what we have now and option for One player per franchise, 5 players in total can be foreign players.
5 players out of 190 SR postions doesn't seem that extreme to me.
Plus there is normally another 50+ players on wider training contracts spread throughout the SR teams as well as the 190 on full contracts. -
@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids. And then you have an injury crisis which sees a retired 37 year old loose forward get drafted in. Not every available spot has to go to a kid, just because one is available. And not all are ready for it.
They sign the kids ahead of experienced players to stop other teams picking them - tough luck. They should play the players in their squads. There are more than enough players, they just want what they think (?) will be a better overseas player. Tough they should always have to select the next best NZ rugby player. Our teams are not setup to further the careers of overseas players or the careers of the coaches. Razor is a great coach, so no doubt he can make do.
Also far too simplistic. The experienced guys who are up to it are either already in SR squads, or they've gone oversees. Who can you name who's experienced and up to it but not getting selected in a squad??
If they are the next best then they are up to it. If they were selected then they wouldn’t go overseas. There will be a whole range of players emerging from or returning to provincial rugby this year. Crusaders just like the teams before them are being lazy.
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@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@duluth said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
Dialing back the intensity I don’t like the sound of that.
That’s what makes AB rugby great if we do that at SR level it will flow through to The ABs eventually and we will lose our edge.The season has changed, there's 8 NZ v NZ games in a row. That is an increase in intensity. Having a few more inexperienced players in the mix offsets that slightly.
If your primary concern is the AB's you should worry about foreign players weakening the playing pool. In some positions 3 players will make the AB squad. If one of the 5 starting spots is taken by a foreigner we have 4 candidates starting each week. An injury or two forces the selection of bench players.
I would have a different opinion on foreign players if we had a few more NZ sides
That will decrease from next season with the new format coming into play.
I am not sure adding players who are not good enough to play in the competition does a lot to strengthen anything.
I would prefer to see what we have now and option for One player per franchise, 5 players in total can be foreign players.
5 players out of 190 SR postions doesn't seem that extreme to me.
Plus there is normally another 50+ players on wider training contracts spread throughout the SR teams as well as the 190 on full contracts.Every contract matters . The chance to be a full time professional is huge. Northland would love to have 1 or 2 more players experiencing a professional rugby environment.
The talk of players not being up to standard is 100% subjective. If you applied such an arbitrary standard then at any point a large number of current players wouldn’t have contracts ( .... if they have been lucky enough to play). Also every year the available players and form varies, so trying to implement a not up to standard rule as a cutoff is impossible. Of course the coaches will throw this line out all the time - it’s their problem to solve, using NZ players and the club / provincial system that has always worked so well and now needs support.
Quite noticeable ( unless you are Blues 9/10 ) that the same players are rolled out every week and not a lot of squad rotation happens currently anyway. Some of these guys just sit in the stands the whole season. A lot of the young ones especially which suggest they are not being selected to play this year.
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@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris ...I think the Pacific Island players are mostly a different story as they live is NZ and play in NZ for club and provincial teams before making SR squads. Often choosing alternative National teams after not making the All Blacks. It’s the ones that don’t come through our systems that I have the issue with....and I can’t understand why the provinces don’t? In theory the SR franchises should be owned and accountable to their feeder provinces. But they are not and the aren’t. Big disconnect. We shouldn’t have players on SR that haven’t played Club and Provincial rugby.
I understand what you are saying and don't completely disagree.But on that list are Pacifc Islanders who didn't grow up or play club Rugby etc so they should fall into the same catagory as ineligible NZ players like Pablo Matera.
Inoke Afeaki is as Hutt as they come.
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@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@duluth said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
Dialing back the intensity I don’t like the sound of that.
That’s what makes AB rugby great if we do that at SR level it will flow through to The ABs eventually and we will lose our edge.The season has changed, there's 8 NZ v NZ games in a row. That is an increase in intensity. Having a few more inexperienced players in the mix offsets that slightly.
If your primary concern is the AB's you should worry about foreign players weakening the playing pool. In some positions 3 players will make the AB squad. If one of the 5 starting spots is taken by a foreigner we have 4 candidates starting each week. An injury or two forces the selection of bench players.
I would have a different opinion on foreign players if we had a few more NZ sides
That will decrease from next season with the new format coming into play.
I am not sure adding players who are not good enough to play in the competition does a lot to strengthen anything.
I would prefer to see what we have now and option for One player per franchise, 5 players in total can be foreign players.
5 players out of 190 SR postions doesn't seem that extreme to me.
Plus there is normally another 50+ players on wider training contracts spread throughout the SR teams as well as the 190 on full contracts.Every contract matters . The chance to be a full time professional is huge. Northland would love to have 1 or 2 more players experiencing a professional rugby environment.
The talk of players not being up to standard is 100% subjective. If you applied such an arbitrary standard then at any point a large number of current players wouldn’t have contracts ( .... if they have been lucky enough to play). Also every year the available players and form varies, so trying to implement a not up to standard rule as a cutoff is impossible. Of course the coaches will throw this line out all the time - it’s their problem to solve, using NZ players and the club / provincial system that has always worked so well and now needs support.
Quite noticeable ( unless you are Blues 9/10 ) that the same players are rolled out every week and not a lot of squad rotation happens currently anyway. Some of these guys just sit in the stands the whole season. A lot of the young ones especially which suggest they are not being selected to play this year.
You are entitled to your opinion of course.
But adding 5 overseas players of high quality IMO
Adds to the competition and hopefully the players you talk about sitting in the stands learn a lot from training and having these players around.
I see it being a potentially good thing. -
Agreed. A young player like Cullen Grace has plenty of time to play later on in his career. He won't get many chances to learn off a guy like Matera. Christie, Sione Havili, Segner etc are all young too,
And will hopefully learn a heck of a lot.
The opposing loose forwards will also be learning through playing against him.The players I have issues with us signing are those that aren't better than what is available (Moeakiola) or they don't have knowledge/experience they can pass on to the younger players. Matera is both quality and has experience/knowledge he can pass on.
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@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@shark said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev nah, that might have been true a good few years ago when our squads had depth but now they're all wafer thin and plenty of guys play SR who've barely even registered on the provincial scene, plus a heap of kids. And then you have an injury crisis which sees a retired 37 year old loose forward get drafted in. Not every available spot has to go to a kid, just because one is available. And not all are ready for it.
They sign the kids ahead of experienced players to stop other teams picking them - tough luck. They should play the players in their squads. There are more than enough players, they just want what they think (?) will be a better overseas player. Tough they should always have to select the next best NZ rugby player. Our teams are not setup to further the careers of overseas players or the careers of the coaches. Razor is a great coach, so no doubt he can make do.
Also far too simplistic. The experienced guys who are up to it are either already in SR squads, or they've gone oversees. Who can you name who's experienced and up to it but not getting selected in a squad??
If they are the next best then they are up to it. If they were selected then they wouldn’t go overseas. There will be a whole range of players emerging from or returning to provincial rugby this year. Crusaders just like the teams before them are being lazy.
That first sentence is utterly ridiculous.
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@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@kev said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
@duluth said in 2021 Crusaders:
@chris said in 2021 Crusaders:
Dialing back the intensity I don’t like the sound of that.
That’s what makes AB rugby great if we do that at SR level it will flow through to The ABs eventually and we will lose our edge.The season has changed, there's 8 NZ v NZ games in a row. That is an increase in intensity. Having a few more inexperienced players in the mix offsets that slightly.
If your primary concern is the AB's you should worry about foreign players weakening the playing pool. In some positions 3 players will make the AB squad. If one of the 5 starting spots is taken by a foreigner we have 4 candidates starting each week. An injury or two forces the selection of bench players.
I would have a different opinion on foreign players if we had a few more NZ sides
That will decrease from next season with the new format coming into play.
I am not sure adding players who are not good enough to play in the competition does a lot to strengthen anything.
I would prefer to see what we have now and option for One player per franchise, 5 players in total can be foreign players.
5 players out of 190 SR postions doesn't seem that extreme to me.
Plus there is normally another 50+ players on wider training contracts spread throughout the SR teams as well as the 190 on full contracts.Every contract matters . The chance to be a full time professional is huge. Northland would love to have 1 or 2 more players experiencing a professional rugby environment.
The talk of players not being up to standard is 100% subjective. If you applied such an arbitrary standard then at any point a large number of current players wouldn’t have contracts ( .... if they have been lucky enough to play). Also every year the available players and form varies, so trying to implement a not up to standard rule as a cutoff is impossible. Of course the coaches will throw this line out all the time - it’s their problem to solve, using NZ players and the club / provincial system that has always worked so well and now needs support.
Quite noticeable ( unless you are Blues 9/10 ) that the same players are rolled out every week and not a lot of squad rotation happens currently anyway. Some of these guys just sit in the stands the whole season. A lot of the young ones especially which suggest they are not being selected to play this year.
You are entitled to your opinion of course.
But adding 5 overseas players of high quality IMO
Adds to the competition and hopefully the players you talk about sitting in the stands learn a lot from training and having these players around.
I see it being a potentially good thing.I don’t disagree with anything you have said. But clubs and provinces are under pressure. It’s seems to me that the best long term play is to prioritise NZ players and strengthen the club and provincial rugby pathway.
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