The Crusaders and their success
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@mariner4life and how do you make AB's other than the odd freak of tallent, have a champion team, success beget success
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@mariner4life said in The Crusaders and their success:
@toddy said in The Crusaders and their success:
They've been lucky enough to have some absolute gun 1st 5's through their times as champions (Mehrts, Carter and now Mo'unga). You still need a good team to win a title but a world class 1st five is probably your first wish as a coach.
There's a bit in that. As a country we don't produce too many really good ones, and thr other sides have lost theirs early every bloody time. Right back to Nick Evans.
Crusaders have earned the time to develop them, too. Carter started at 12. Mo'unga served an apprenticeship.
others at other franchisees (Nick Evans) got asked to rescue a failing franchise, and just got thrown in the deep end
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@nzzp Evans also wanted to play 10 at all costs, even if it meant trying to overtake DC, where we were most in need was at 15, i honestly think if he'd concentrated at 15 and covered 10 he could have had a long career in NZ
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@kiwiwomble said in The Crusaders and their success:
@nzzp Evans also wanted to play 10 at all costs, even if it meant trying to overtake DC, where we were most in need was at 15, i honestly think if he'd concentrated at 15 and covered 10 he could have had a long career in NZ
ha ha, Blues wound up playing him at 15.
/shakes head
We had no clue. Tried Toeava at 10, everyone got a go. You don't get quality 10s by chopping and changing.
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@nzzp said in The Crusaders and their success:
ha ha, Blues wound up playing him at 15.
I don't have a problem with that. Evans wasn't playing well for the Blues but Nacewa was. The problem was that both decided to leave leave NZ rugby at the same time.
That left the Blues with players like Lachie Munro who wasn't good enough for SR -
@toddy said in The Crusaders and their success:
They've been lucky enough to have some absolute gun 1st 5's through their times as champions (Mehrts, Carter and now Mo'unga). You still need a good team to win a title but a world class 1st five is probably your first wish as a coach.
they still showed ability and discernment to pick and refine these gun 10s (looks sideways at Blues)..
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@nzzp said in The Crusaders and their success:
Tried Toeava at 10,
I thought Ice played well at 10 overseas?
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@nzzp said in The Crusaders and their success:
@kiwiwomble said in The Crusaders and their success:
@nzzp Evans also wanted to play 10 at all costs, even if it meant trying to overtake DC, where we were most in need was at 15, i honestly think if he'd concentrated at 15 and covered 10 he could have had a long career in NZ
ha ha, Blues wound up playing him at 15.
/shakes head
We had no clue. Tried Toeava at 10, everyone got a go. You don't get quality 10s by chopping and changing.
What, not even by chopping and changing ... and poaching? (New Blues management strategy)..
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@nostrildamus said in The Crusaders and their success:
What, not even by chopping and changing ... and poaching? (New Blues management strategy)..
Poaching in NZR is having a better environment. The Crusaders have been doing it for years. Just now the success is showing in teh Blues at last - picking up players who want to go there, rather than have no option but to go there.
Darry
Hunt
Laulalathose a big offseason signings. It's like I said above - getting quality into the players ranked 25-35 in the squad makes a difference. How often have the Crusaders and ABs won games in the last 20 minutes? Depth of squad, quality of bench.
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Just to clarify the Blues 2008 season
Evans played 12 out of 13 games.
8 were at 10, 4 were at fullback. He had a decent shot at the 10 jersey but did not play well.Nacewa had injuries and only played 8 games.
4 at 10, 4 at fullbackToeava played every game usually starting in the midfield. He played a game at 10 (his only SR game in that position) Probably when Nacewa was injured?
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I've been watching and occasionally interacting with Ben Darwin on twitter on this sort of thing. He runs an outfit (Gain Line Analytics) that does organisation-based statistics, and this is his pinned tweet:
This stuck with me in reference to the wider level of an organisation, with relation to a discussion a couple of weeks back on the demise of the Tahs:
There is also a significant correlation between success and squad time together on the park according to some of his other stuff.
I think all these things point to why the Crusaders continue to succeed, along with my own belief that they resemble the Brumbies to a degree in that their feeder pathways are narrow. Contrast that to the Blues or Tahs who, despite being the big boys in the room in terms of numbers, continue to underperform.
Their successful teams over the years have changed glacially; long termers in key positions with a few parts swapped out here and there. No dickheads policy seems to rule the roost, while their back office are focused on success.
And when you're successful, you've got your pick of the players who aspire to play through to the highest level.
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This is early days, but we can see the difference in the Blues, with the off field staff getting sorted out.
New board, new CEO, new coaches (that do the talent spotting), better facilities to train, effort put into club relationships with the franchise.
When the Blues were a basketcase in all those areas, it filtered down to the players, and effected the ability to attract new talent. Poor selections at coach (Kirwan and Tana) by a starstruck fanboy board just set the ceiling really low.
So it's not one answer for the Cantabs, but they clearly have the off field side of things very organised.
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I mentioned a couple of times that I've been reading a series of Terry McLean's books. I'm currently reading about the 1959 Lions tour. McLean writes:
"What a remarkable record Canterbury has against overseas teams! The Lions were the 20th of 30 overseas visiting teams to be beaten by the province."
In another book he wrote about Canterbury being a maverick province, which didn't get anyone on the AB selection panel for more than a decade.
I was going to say (as I've said before) that a decent chunk of the road leads back to Grizz Wyllie and the Glenmark Club. But, probably some of the philosophy pre-dates Wyllie. But, it's somewhat around hard, abrasive rugby - especially having a dominant forward pack.
Toddy Blackadder took this to an extreme where he barely seemed to bother with having decent backs outside No. 10. At least he didn't allocate much budget to it.
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@nzzp I think that's a notable part of Leon's strategy. He didn't think, "Good enough" - he went out and signed Nepo Laulala to give the Blues four test props.
Still some chinks in the locks and hookers - and further in the inside backs, but the Blues are clearly a strong team now and can match the Crusaders.
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It’s interesting to note that their first 3 wins were upsets and all played away from home. They weren’t the best team in any of those years but that established a winning culture that continued on from there. It also helped that some astonishing talent (McCaw, Carter and Mauger)came in at the perfect time after the miserable 2001 season. Now it’s just an unstoppable machine. I’m in absolute awe of what they have achieved. It seems everything from
recruitment to culture is absolutely world class.It also helps that they sabotage other teams with their coaching rejects 🎣
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@rancid-schnitzel said in The Crusaders and their success:
It’s interesting to note that their first 3 wins were upsets and all played away from home.
Blues were robbed in 98; ref swallowed his whistle for a PT in the scrum
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One of the biggest factors in the recent success is the academy program. The fact these guys get to train as almost professional athletes. Unless they are an absolute superstar like Cullen Grace then they are not rushed. These kids train so hard in their first 2-3 years in the system that their fitness levels are crazy. Aaron Webb is one of the most important people at the crusaders.
Be interesting to see who goes further out of Aidan Morgan or Ollie Lewis. Both the nz schools 10s from 2019. One already played mitre 10 cup and in hurricanes. The other played colts for Sumner and a few games of div 1. -
@nzzp it was tongue in cheek.
Basically, the Blues IMO have hired a better coach and improved their board. They always had sizzling backs and big forwards. Still a little weak at 9 and 10 imo.
