The GOAT
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Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
This is what makes this topic so fun - there is a lot of pros and cons.
Even Bradman - the guy played 11 test series in his whole career and his only overseas series were in England - he never played in Asia, South Africa, West Indies etc.
As I mentioned earlier I love the inane ramblings of butthurt Indians online who are unable to grasp the fact that he averaged close to 50 runs more than the very best of them.
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Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
Maybe above Kid Rock but below Tommy Lee ? Has Pamela Anderson ever released any memoirs ?
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Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
Oh yes, I saw your suggestion earlier and I liked it. Forgot him. Agree he is right up there, what a freak.
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Trying to name a cross-sport GOAT is pretty pointless imho. There could very well be squash players, gymnasts, volleyballers or farking kayakers who have dominated their respective sports more than higher profile athletes in higher profile sports. Ever heard of Ole Einar Bjøndalen? Norwegian biathlete who won 8 Olympic gold medals.
And how do you compare Usaine Bolt with the Don? Or Michael Phelps with Ayrton Senna?
Tom Brady’s stats are absolutely ridiculous, but in a team sport with vast differences required in terms of size and skill set is it fair to say he’s the best ever player rather than the best ever QB? Same with the Don. Best batter for sure, but the dude didn’t bowl, so does that make him the best ever cricketer full stop?
It’s a fun conversation but I don’t see how anyone (other than the asshole Yanks) can unequivocally declare anyone the GOAT.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Deion Sanders played NFL and MLB on the same weekend at times. In the pro era. That's fucking unreal.
He and Bo Jackson are the last 2 great dual sportsman
Bo Jackson is a contender for the BOAT athlete (rather than the GOAT).
In addition to football and baseball...his High School decathlon points record appears to exceed the Olympic qualifying standard.
While at McAdory High School, Jackson competed as a sprinter, hurdler, jumper, thrower and decathlete. His best 100-meter time in high school was 10.44 seconds, but he would later run a 10.39 at Auburn. He also ran the 100-yard dash in 9.54 seconds. As a hurdler, he recorded times of 7.29 seconds in the 55m hurdles and 13.81 seconds in the 110m hurdles. In decathlon, he reached 8340 points. In the jumping events, he had personal-best jumps of 2.06 meters (6 feet, 9 inches) in the high jump, 7.52 meters (24 feet, 8 inches) in the long jump and 14.85 meters (48 feet, 9 inches) in the triple jump. As a thrower, he got top-throws of 15.27 meters (50 feet, 1 inch) in the shot put and 45.44 meters (149 feet, 1 inch) in the discus throw.
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Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
real high. and the fact he was style ultra competitive in a young mans game for a long time too. Think how many rivals came and went?
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Deion Sanders played NFL and MLB on the same weekend at times. In the pro era. That's fucking unreal.
He and Bo Jackson are the last 2 great dual sportsman
Bo Jackson is a contender for the BOAT athlete (rather than the GOAT).
In addition to football and baseball...his High School decathlon points record appears to exceed the Olympic qualifying standard.
While at McAdory High School, Jackson competed as a sprinter, hurdler, jumper, thrower and decathlete. His best 100-meter time in high school was 10.44 seconds, but he would later run a 10.39 at Auburn. He also ran the 100-yard dash in 9.54 seconds. As a hurdler, he recorded times of 7.29 seconds in the 55m hurdles and 13.81 seconds in the 110m hurdles. In decathlon, he reached 8340 points. In the jumping events, he had personal-best jumps of 2.06 meters (6 feet, 9 inches) in the high jump, 7.52 meters (24 feet, 8 inches) in the long jump and 14.85 meters (48 feet, 9 inches) in the triple jump. As a thrower, he got top-throws of 15.27 meters (50 feet, 1 inch) in the shot put and 45.44 meters (149 feet, 1 inch) in the discus throw.
Bo was a ridiculous athlete. He hated the mile and would rack up enough points to win in order to get out of running it. As an aside, he also appears to be an amazing human being as well.
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
real high. and the fact he was style ultra competitive in a young mans game for a long time too. Think how many rivals came and went?
11 World titles and first year on tour was 1989!!!!
GET OUTSIDE!!!!
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
real high. and the fact he was style ultra competitive in a young mans game for a long time too. Think how many rivals came and went?
11 World titles and first year on tour was 1989!!!!
GET OUTSIDE!!!!
If you like surfing docos, have a watch of Kissed By God, story of Andy Irons - he won the world title 3 years straight, 2002, 2003 & 2004 - Slater won in 2005 as the oldest winner ever, and Irons spiraled into a life of drugs and depression - what could have been!
This is a decent read also
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
real high. and the fact he was style ultra competitive in a young mans game for a long time too. Think how many rivals came and went?
11 World titles and first year on tour was 1989!!!!
GET OUTSIDE!!!!
If you like surfing docos, have a watch of Kissed By God, story of Andy Irons - he won the world title 3 years straight, 2002, 2003 & 2004 - Slater won in 2005 as the oldest winner ever, and Irons spiraled into a life of drugs and depression - what could have been!
This is a decent read also
Pretty much seen anything to do with surfing.
Loved the Netflix doco they had during lockdown last year. I can't for the life of me remember what it was called but they were really tight knit all those top end guys in the 90's
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My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
Fun exercise, and I agree with M4L that this would be best argued over 10 pints. No right answers. I like MJ, I like Bolt, I have time for Brady.
I can't have a boxer given we can't even decide who the best of them is - I also can't have non-heavyweights or any other athlete that competes in a weight class. I don't mind so much if a sport isn't widely played.
Can't have Pele or any other soccer player cos they're all cheating cnts. Swimmers nah, unless some bloke dominated all the freestyle events for a decade, no other strokes count. No "sports" allowed that don't require you to work up a sweat.
One important distinction for me for GOAT is I place much more emphasis on peak performance than I do career resume. A good example is MJ v Kareem or Lebron. Both those guys may have had better careers than MJ when you look at the body of work. But if the aliens turned up tomorrow to play us at BBall for the future of the earth, there is only 1 guy you're picking first.
So I always come back to MJ. The consensus #1 NBA GOAT for anyone over the age of 25. A pretty global sport that requires mental strength as well as physical dominance, and requires you to co-exist with teammates and commit to making them better.
Where does Kelly Slater fit amongst all this?
real high. and the fact he was style ultra competitive in a young mans game for a long time too. Think how many rivals came and went?
11 World titles and first year on tour was 1989!!!!
GET OUTSIDE!!!!
If you like surfing docos, have a watch of Kissed By God, story of Andy Irons - he won the world title 3 years straight, 2002, 2003 & 2004 - Slater won in 2005 as the oldest winner ever, and Irons spiraled into a life of drugs and depression - what could have been!
This is a decent read also
Pretty much seen anything to do with surfing.
Loved the Netflix doco they had during lockdown last year. I can't for the life of me remember what it was called but they were really tight knit all those top end guys in the 90's
Blue Crush?
Yeah, it's pretty good...
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@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
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We're too humble as Kiwis. McCaw is right in the conversation for GOAT athlete. Absolutely amazing record as a player and as a captain including the pinnacle of back to back World Cups among countless other trophies. Mentally tougher or as tough as anyone to play any sport anywhere. Always led from the front and made any team he played for nigh on impossible to beat.
Honestly I doubt the guy is 100% human, he was absolutely relentless and was probably the most important factor in our incredible success over the period he was captain. We will never be as dominant as we were under his captaincy ever again, a fact we are starting to come to terms with now after a decade of absolute domination. We just don't have the resources to be that far ahead of the pack in the professional era lest we get another McCaw.
Yes he had fine players around him but you throw him in any team and they suddenly become 10x harder to beat.
I'm also still gutted Lomu was so unwell for most of his career. He was one of a kind.
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@No-Quarter said in The GOAT:
We're too humble as Kiwis. McCaw is right in the conversation for GOAT athlete. Absolutely amazing record as a player and as a captain including the pinnacle of back to back World Cups among countless other trophies. Mentally tougher or as tough as anyone to play any sport anywhere. Always led from the front and made any team is played for nigh on impossible to beat.
Honestly I doubt the guy is 100% human, he was absolutely relentless and was probably the most important factor in our incredible success over the period he was captain. We will never be as dominant as we were under his captaincy ever again, a fact we are starting to come to terms with now after a decade of absolute domination.
Yes he had fine players around him but you throw him in any team and they suddenly become 10x harder to beat.
I'm also still gutted Lomu was so unwell for most of his career. He was one of a kind.
MJ was lauded for winning a game with bad food poisoning (the so called flu game). None of the others we've talked about ever played and won a world Cup with a broken foot
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@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
the Grand Slam records are ridiculous. Those 3 guys have dominated the sport like no others. All sort of at the same time. Absolutely no one has stepped up in what is supposed to be a young mans game
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@No-Quarter it'll never fly. Rugby fans are far too divided. Irish fans will say O'Driscoll. English fans will say Jonny. Welsh fans will say some bloke from black and white TV. The saffers will say some bloke who wasn't allowed to play other countries. The Aussies won't even admit Richie was the best openside in Australasia during his career.
And then the cheat/offside/refs didn't watch him shit starts.
Rugby fans are weird. Football fans of all countries marvel at Messi and Ronaldo. Rugby fans would constantly come up with reasons why they are actually a bit shit, and not a patch on "insert some bloke from their country"
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@Magpie_in_aus said in The GOAT:
My favorite tennis player is Fed but when it's said and done he won't be the GOAT of his sport let alone sport in general. Good chance both of the others will overtake him for grand slams and he has a losing record against them as well. Hurts me to say a % of his goat chat is due to his likability (and winning lotttttsss).
Amazing to have 3 players of their calibre and longevity all overlapping careers. Not sure what it says about the rest of the field that most failed to break through when these guys were at their prime
the Grand Slam records are ridiculous. Those 3 guys have dominated the sport like no others. All sort of at the same time. Absolutely no one has stepped up in what is supposed to be a young mans game
They are only emerging as these guys get closer to the end. The only guys I can think of that troubled the big 3 were Murray and Stan Wawrinka. Of the two I though Stanimal was a big threat when fit. He won 3 different slams. Murray was more often the bridesmaid than the bride, and generally didn't put up much of a fight in slam finals
Bo Jackson - Wikipedia
