Island Rugby - Dan Leo Documentary
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Right, I've just watched it. Here are my thoughts.
Although I expect it be seriously eye opening for many people, I doubt it will be for many on this forum. Most of the main points are well known in NZ rugby circles and there is certainly nothing new that will bring any surprises. The huge outcry here about it, I think demonstrates just how much people here aren't really aware of the full facts. Basically, the 3 nations (Tonga, Fiji, Samoa) have very little cash, small crumbling infrastructure and huge political involvement. Dan does go to decent lengths to show this & does manage to scoop some fairly decent interviews - Samoa PM, Gosper probably the biggest. Gosper comes across really bad, and unwilling to be the leader of any real change in favour of these nations.
The timing of release unfortunately for Dan is quite shit. Covid will bring about an every man for himself mentality, which is pretty much so most of the problem. However, full kudos to the man for making it & trying to do something about it. So would I recommend it? I think people that hold opinions on Island rugby should, yes. I doubt it will change many minds though.
Final point. Stephen Jones makes a couple of appearances. Man, he is one seriously ugly looking creature. I took some odd satisfaction in that. Did make me smile though as one of the comments I read somewhere about what really got to him, was about children as young as 13 being attracted to schools in NZ. After watching it, you'll realise that it's pretty much so the only bit of negative press that NZ gets in it, and honestly ... is barely even part of the story line. Leopard, spots etc.
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@Rapido said in Island Rugby - Dan Leo Documentary:
So, what were the causes and solutions as identified in the doco?
From what I have read changes pushed are a 'homecoming' rule and revenue sharing of gates.
Government corruption & lack of real support for change from the big unions are the overarching points. He manages to take on both points with the key people. Samoa PM (who off camera sounds horrific, but on camera made some fair points) & Gosper (comes across terrible - leader of an old boys club).
Solutions? Gate revenue sharing is the obvious one. Dan also wants one-country, one vote ... but as Gosper says himself about that happening ... "not while I'm running the show" (or something like that). Comment does need context though as what he really means is that he cannot see the votes going through to agree to it at all.
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@MajorRage said in Island Rugby - Dan Leo Documentary:
Comment does need context though as what he really means is that he cannot see the votes going through to agree to it at all.
To change the voting system, you first need to change the voting system...
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I wonder how far 'one country, one vote' PRW would be prepared to go?
That the 100 odd members of WR get one each? Like Fifa.
Because if those 80 other Tier 2s and TIer 3s suddenly get given a vote they will quickly vote away the privileges the 3 PI unions get compared to even other Tier 2s, let alone Tier3s.
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I've recently watched a documentary on Amazon, Oceans Apart. A look into the problems with Island rugby by Dan Leo. I'd welcome the views of anyone who has seen it.
It seemed a bit disjointed to me and had, at first a scattergun approach but seemed to end up with a view that it was an extension of the colonial mindset that was the problem. Even going as far as to use the term slavery in regard to not allowing a step down from representing Tier 1 to Tier 2.
Obviously a very complex issue with no simple fix but there is without doubt a deep level of unfairness.
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@Catogrande Hi mate, this thread was opened for this . Take a look at above for my thoughts.
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@MajorRage Thanks, not sure how I missed this 🙄
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@Catogrande what were your thoughts on Gosper?
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@MajorRage said in Island Rugby - Dan Leo Documentary:
@Catogrande what were your thoughts on Gosper?
I thought his comment about the one country one vote issue "not while I'm here" will be dragged up time and again to prove a point about a lack of willingness whereas I think he meant that it would just take a long time. That aside though, I thought he came across as clueless and directionless. He really had no answers to any of Leo's points to the extent that you wondered if he really understood anything much at all.
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@Catogrande Gosper comes across as the old boy at the head of the old boys club.
Nothing is going to change in my view.
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@Rapido said in Island Rugby - Dan Leo Documentary:
This is the current WR voting structure.
51 votes, divided (unevenly) among 24 unions/ continental organisations.
Tonga doesn't have a direct vote, it hasn't met the criteria (the governance part).
in all honesty, that seems pretty fair.
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I am in favour of 1 country , 1 vote.
But I am also in favour of restricting that by certain criteria (as they currently do: Governance, performance, financial).Using the current 24 organisations with votes. I doubt that the 'homecoming' rule would get accepted.
But what you would probably get would be a a larger World Cup qualifying system. Which would bring Tier 2s into more contact with Tier 1s. And, if, the TV Rights for qualifying were to be owned by WR it could be collected in a single pot and distributed. Maybe even enough to cover the loss of hosting tests in Apia or Nukualofa.
So that would go some way to solving the revenue sharing, and the not playing away v T2 nations issues.
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The use of the word 'almost slavery' in the documentary, I admit, gets my hackles up and makes me defensive.
Use of the term neo-colonialism is probably pretty smart.
Plenty of the current voting power is in countries who feel a bit of pressure from anything with a whiff of neo-colonialsim accusations about it. More chance of passing a 'homecoming' rule if the voting power of places like Georgia, Romania, Spain, Russia, Uruguay etc is also still weak.
So more chance of passing with current uneven voting structure that with 1 country, 1 vote.
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On potential ‘homecoming’ rule. How do you guys feel about it?
I am sort of no. Sort of yes.
This rule, and variations of it, have been discussed several time on here. In general my impression is NZ fans, including probably majority on here, NZ media and the NZRU (Definitely, on record proposing this) are in favour. NZ mostly see Tier 2 rugby through the prism of Pacific Islands. Maybe most of the Anglosphere does actually.
Current rule. If play test, ‘A’ or 7s. You are tied to that country for life – unless use Olympic 7’s loophole.
I don’t think you should be tied for life by ‘A’ level rugby. Not that NZ have played it for over a decade. So not many examples, but Nick Williams, North Harbour No8, NZ born with Samoan ancestry, spent decade playing in Europe – would be example of guy blocked from playing for Samoa if he had wanted, by playing for Junior All Blacks.
7s. I care little about the format, guys selected for this are often very young. I don’t mind if this doesn’t tie you to a country.
Test level, I say no.
Not sure what was proposed in documentary? But in past it has been pot forward that there is a caps threshold. So under 10 caps for example – then can switch later on.
3 year stand down?
In the documentary 2 NZ Pasifika players interviewed on the subject. Charles Piutau and Lima Sopoaga.
They evoke very different emotions in me. I have no beef with Charles Piutau’s decision to leave NZ, disappointed he was so young, but he has his priorities. I was disappointed Hansen didn’t take to world cup on a principle, thank god Naholo wasn’t needed for a crunch game. Crazy risk.
Lima Sopoaga I feel very let down by. NZ were lucky we didn’t have a first-five crisis. The timing of his move was awful, played the system a bit IMO (or incompetent contracting by the NZRU). Is half Samoan / half Cook Island. I admit I would resent it if he had a second international career after they way he treated the NZ system and fans.
I think Piutau would/should be ruled out of a ‘homecoming’ criteria by playing too many caps. While I think Sopoaga would fit a likely homecoming criteria, despite ‘only’ being half Samoan and treating his first nation like crap. Bad examples to use to win me over. Should have interviewed someone like Lolagi Visinia .....
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i think i am against it.
it should be renamed the Pacific Islands rule, and it's basically to allow kiwis to have two test careers.
I would be happy to remove the sevens and secondary teams qualifiers, but if you play a test that should lock you in.
I am uneasy with a career progression of play a test for NZ, use that cap to pump up your price overseas. move to Europe, become inelligible for NZ, have a back-up career for another country.
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@mariner4life said in Island Rugby - Dan Leo Documentary:
I am uneasy with a career progression of play a test for NZ, use that cap to pump up your price overseas. move to Europe, become inelligible for NZ, have a back-up career for another country.
While there is an element of colonialism about it all, the way we talk about these Islander players sometimes gets me.
In Australia we've picked a few guys who, from where I sit, probably didn't consider themselves to be Australian. Taqele Naiyarovoro and Eto Nabuli spring to mind, Isi Naisirani may be another. It doesn't sit too well with me, as they are better suited playing for their home country.
But they weren't forced into the Wallaby jersey against their will. They opted to play and were handsomely rewarded for doing so. The two wingers have parlayed that into lucrative foreign deals.
Portraying this all as the big bad 3N/6N countries and big bad World Rugby doesn't work with me. Yes there are ways we could improve the system but the reality is much more complex than Islands good, rest bad.
JB from the Eggchasers pod touched on some of this in this article, which I think is a good read: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/professional-rugby-is-poison-to-the-pacific-islands/
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@barbarian Thanks Barbs, that article explained my concerns a lot better than I could.
