Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years
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@Crucial said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Siam said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Godder said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Crucial said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Siam said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Crucial said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
Tests:
M Crowe
KW
R Taylor
HadleeConsidering Turner (but then you'd also have to consider Rigor who has a similar record), Reid (not enough tests?), Bond (not enough tests? Clearly our best strike rate), Baz (not our best keeper and also not among the best bats, but as a bat/keeper? up there). Vettori or Fleming as most test contributions. It's quite hard.
If I apply the criteria of who would be is discussion for a spot in a world XI? Def the ones named plus maybe Bond, maybe Watling (although his stats are very good he would probably be 5th or 6th choice behind much stronger candidates like Dhoni and Gilchrist.)
@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@NTA said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Crucial said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
Test? ODI? Seperate lists?
Mate just try to get to 5 first
You wouldn’t be so cocky if the A stood for Afghanistan.
Fuck me, some legends would miss out on the top five aussies though.
Ponting wouldn’t make my team just as one example.
He would if 'A' stood for asshole.
Mate, who do you think was a better keeper. Focussing on just that I can't recall Baz dropping many, Parore did, but maybe fatguts commentator was the tidiest of all?
Purely as a keeper I seem to recall Smithy being the last of our true specialists. We seem to have filled the position with batsmen that can keep ever since.
I would rate Smith as the best keeper I've seen play (so from about 1988 onwards). He despised Parore, but said on commentary near the end of Parore's career that he was the best in the world as a keeper, so that tells me that Parore was legitimately good at it. Baz was also world class, as is Watling now.
Seen too many fumbles and drops for Watling. Dropped a couple in one innings I think. It's an incredible standard but BJ isn't as natural as the other 3.
Not many peer players liked Adam. Remember one telling me standing at first slip, Parore dropped one that went between them and immediately turned to state " that was yours you effing c". And that was the end of the matter. A beautiful wicket-keeper though. Smithy seldom dived and a can't recall a single clanger (not saying there wasn't one). Baz was really tidy, good energy and relished "speccys". Not many errors spring to mind.Smithy (yes, the same guy that waddles the sidelines now) had the best footwork. Never got caught flat-footed.
back in the mid 90's when he started his corpulent journey, there was a hand made sign at the cricket that just said
'squeal like a stuck pig Smithy'
oh, how I laughed...
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@nzzp said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@mariner4life said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
you would struggle to pick the 5 greatest Australian Cricketers from 95-2005
McGrath, Ponting, SWaugh, Warne, then probably Hayden (redefined opening)
If we’re applying the last 50 years:
Warne, Ponting, S. Waugh, Lillee, Border
Next tier: McGrath, S. Smith, Gilchrist, Hayden, G. Chappell
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@ACT-Crusader said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@nzzp said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@mariner4life said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
you would struggle to pick the 5 greatest Australian Cricketers from 95-2005
McGrath, Ponting, SWaugh, Warne, then probably Hayden (redefined opening)
If we’re applying the last 50 years:
Warne, Ponting, S. Waugh, Lillee, Border
Next tier: McGrath, S. Smith, Gilchrist, Hayden, G. Chappell
Only Warne unquestionably makes your top tier in my opinion. The others are all greats but McGrath > Lillee stands out the most in that bunch.
Some of the others are a coin toss.....plus they have loads of guys who were merely ‘very good’.....
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NZ - Hadlee, Crowe, Williamson, Turner, Cairns.
India - Gavaskar, Dev, Kumble, Tendulkar, Dravid
SA - Richards, G Pollock, Kallis, Donald, Rice
Aus - Border, Warne, McGrath, G Chappell, Lilliee
Pakistan - Akram, Miandad, Waqar, Inzamam, Imran Khan
WI - Richards, Garner, Sobers, Marshall, Holding
England - Cook, Botham, Willis, Anderson, Flintoff
Sri Lanka - Murali, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Vaas, Ranatunga
Zimbabwe - A Flower, Houghton, Streak, Goodwin, Taylor
Bangladesh - Al Hasan, Tamim, Rafique, Bashar, Mushfiqur -
@African-Monkey said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
India - Gavaskar, Dev, Kumble, Tendulkar, Dravid
No Dhoni is going to seriously set off the Indians on this board (if we have any)
WI - Richards, Garner, Sobers, Marshall, Holding
No Brian Lara?
England - Cook, Botham, Willis, Anderson, Flintoff
Wow. It speaks to how badly they were pummelled in the Ashes from the late-80s to mid-00s that there's literally no one from that period.
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@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@ACT-Crusader said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@nzzp said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@mariner4life said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
you would struggle to pick the 5 greatest Australian Cricketers from 95-2005
McGrath, Ponting, SWaugh, Warne, then probably Hayden (redefined opening)
If we’re applying the last 50 years:
Warne, Ponting, S. Waugh, Lillee, Border
Next tier: McGrath, S. Smith, Gilchrist, Hayden, G. Chappell
Only Warne unquestionably makes your top tier in my opinion. The others are all greats but McGrath > Lillee stands out the most in that bunch.
Some of the others are a coin toss.....plus they have loads of guys who were merely ‘very good’.....
Ponting is arguably the best batsman Australia has had since Bradman, so he and Warne are guaranteed in there.
Agree there are close calls on the others. Toughest one for me was Border over Steve Smith. Border’s captaincy of an Australian team that really didn’t have a huge amount of world class talent in a very tough era, got him the nod.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@ACT-Crusader said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@nzzp said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@mariner4life said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
you would struggle to pick the 5 greatest Australian Cricketers from 95-2005
McGrath, Ponting, SWaugh, Warne, then probably Hayden (redefined opening)
If we’re applying the last 50 years:
Warne, Ponting, S. Waugh, Lillee, Border
Next tier: McGrath, S. Smith, Gilchrist, Hayden, G. Chappell
Only Warne unquestionably makes your top tier in my opinion. The others are all greats but McGrath > Lillee stands out the most in that bunch.
Some of the others are a coin toss.....plus they have loads of guys who were merely ‘very good’.....
Ponting is arguably the best batsman Australia has had since Bradman, so he and Warne are guaranteed in there.
Agree there are close calls on the others. Toughest one for me was Border over Steve Smith. Border’s captaincy of an Australian team that really didn’t have a huge amount of world class talent in a very tough era, got him the nod.
Nothing against Ponting who is a great by any era but in my opinion he doesn’t make an all time Oz team either. You have Hayden and someone else opening ( this is a relatively weak pool comparatively speaking ). Bradman at three and I just can’t not pick Steve Smith at four. Then you have middle order/All Rounders and a keeper to get in so that’s between Border, S Waugh ( one of whom may have to miss out ), Gilly ( who walks in ) and Keith Miller. Border and S Waugh both did their best work at 5/6 from memory. One gets in, possibly both.....
.....and I didn’t even get to mention Greg Chappell
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@African-Monkey said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
NZ - Hadlee, Crowe, Williamson, Turner, Cairns.
India - Gavaskar, Dev, Kumble, Tendulkar, Dravid
SA - Richards, G Pollock, Kallis, Donald, Rice
Aus - Border, Warne, McGrath, G Chappell, Lilliee
Pakistan - Akram, Miandad, Waqar, Inzamam, Imran Khan
WI - Richards, Garner, Sobers, Marshall, Holding
England - Cook, Botham, Willis, Anderson, Flintoff
Sri Lanka - Murali, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Vaas, Ranatunga
Zimbabwe - A Flower, Houghton, Streak, Goodwin, Taylor
Bangladesh - Al Hasan, Tamim, Rafique, Bashar, MushfiqurThe fact you pick Flintoff shows that loads of their true legends are long gone.
Ambrose should be in ahead of Holding and Garner surely
The SA guys you picked had massive first class records but surely you can find a few from recent times ?
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@ACT-Crusader said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@nzzp said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@mariner4life said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
you would struggle to pick the 5 greatest Australian Cricketers from 95-2005
McGrath, Ponting, SWaugh, Warne, then probably Hayden (redefined opening)
If we’re applying the last 50 years:
Mine was in response to trying to pick the top Aussies from the 90's
It's a ferocious lineup - would go up against damn near any other open grade I suspect.
McGrath, Warne, SWaugh, Ponting, Gilchrist. I mean, that is some spine. Pad that out with two other fast bowlers, and some token batsmen and you beat most sides in the world
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@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
Only Warne unquestionably makes your top tier in my opinion. The others are all greats but McGrath > Lillee stands out the most in that bunch.
You're showing your age.
@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
The SA guys you picked had massive first class records but surely you can find a few from recent times ?
Richards and Pollock are two of the greatest of all time from any country. The fact that their careers were only at the beginning of the qualification period is irrelevant. Do think your right about Clive Rice though.
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@dogmeat said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
Only Warne unquestionably makes your top tier in my opinion. The others are all greats but McGrath > Lillee stands out the most in that bunch.
You're showing your age.
@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
The SA guys you picked had massive first class records but surely you can find a few from recent times ?
Richards and Pollock are two of the greatest of all time from any country. The fact that their careers were only at the beginning of the qualification period is irrelevant. Do think your right about Clive Rice though.
How is it irrelevant? it’s not their fault obviously but I’d still rate them as ‘could have been’. Barry Richards played FOUR tests !?!?!
There’s a number of players who dominated first class but didn’t do the same at test level. Look at Graeme Hick and Mark Ramprakash.
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@MN5 First Class Cricket in England in the 70's was as tough as Test cricket. There were only 6 test nations and most of the decade three of them were shit. Richards shone. Better judges than us have him as an all time great of the game so to say he isn't one of the top 5 SA players of the past 50 years is a bit too much of a stretch for me.
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@dogmeat said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@MN5 First Class Cricket in England in the 70's was as tough as Test cricket. There were only 6 test nations and most of the decade three of them were shit. Richards shone. Better judges than us have him as an all time great of the game so to say he isn't one of the top 5 SA players of the past 50 years is a bit too much of a stretch for me.
I think it’s fair to say he would have been a test great, I’ve read and heard enough to know this but again, he didn’t do it. Agree to disagree I suppose.
On that point though Hadlee as an example dominated County cricket in the 70s and 80s averaging under 20 with the ball and over 30 with the bat. David Gower barely averaged 40 at first class level, 44 at test level.....so it’s not always a completely accurate yardstick.
England wanked on about Hick after his county exploits but he became nothing more than a bog standard test batsman
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@MN5 Yeah a lot of good players miss out. Ambrose could easily go on that list too.
Nah, no regrets on picking those guys from the 70s and 80s in the SA list. It's one of the great tragedies that the world didn't get to see much of the at international level. Them and the Windies would have had some huge battles if it weren't for their ban.
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@African-Monkey said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@MN5 Yeah a lot of good players miss out. Ambrose could easily go on that list too.
Nah, no regrets on picking those guys from the 70s and 80s in the SA list. It's one of the great tragedies that the world didn't get to see much of the at international level. Them and the Windies would have had some huge battles if it weren't for their ban.
Windies of the last 50 years could possibly expand to 10 I reckon, so on that basis I'd go.....
Richards, Lara, Lloyd, Ambrose, Garner, Marshall, Walsh, Holding, Chanderpaul, Sobers ( possibly lucky as he only played for four years in the 70s )
Then I guess you have the "very goods" ie Richardson, Greenidge, Haynes, Bishop, Croft, Roberts, Dujon etc. I suppose what made them awesome ( and Australia in the 2000s ) was that every single player was either "Great" or at least "very good"
For point of reference I think Paddles and KW are our only true "Greats". Ever.
Crowe ( and I know this irks a few ), Taylor, C Cairns, Turner are "very good"
DV ? either "good" or "very good"....compelling arguements either way. Our best ever spinner undoubtedly but that's a pretty shallow puddle, not even a pool.
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@Siam said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Crucial said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
Tests:
M Crowe
KW
R Taylor
HadleeConsidering Turner (but then you'd also have to consider Rigor who has a similar record), Reid (not enough tests?), Bond (not enough tests? Clearly our best strike rate), Baz (not our best keeper and also not among the best bats, but as a bat/keeper? up there). Vettori or Fleming as most test contributions. It's quite hard.
If I apply the criteria of who would be is discussion for a spot in a world XI? Def the ones named plus maybe Bond, maybe Watling (although his stats are very good he would probably be 5th or 6th choice behind much stronger candidates like Dhoni and Gilchrist.)
@MN5 said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@NTA said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
@Crucial said in Five Greatest Black Caps of the Past 50 years:
Test? ODI? Seperate lists?
Mate just try to get to 5 first
You wouldn’t be so cocky if the A stood for Afghanistan.
Fuck me, some legends would miss out on the top five aussies though.
Ponting wouldn’t make my team just as one example.
He would if 'A' stood for asshole.
Mate, who do you think was a better keeper. Focussing on just that I can't recall Baz dropping many, Parore did, but maybe fatguts commentator was the tidiest of all?
Baz was an incredible keeper in his prime. So quick on his feet and super athletic, I'm not sure I've actually seen any better than him especially against the quicks, taking catches down leg that he had no business being anywhere near. Back gave out pretty early on though which was a shame.
