Crusaders 2020
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@Machpants I don't think that staying in his comfort zone and avoiding international experience will do much for his chances.
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@Machpants I think you're reading it wrong. According to the article, they think Robertson will re-sign for two more years (until the end of 2023). So if that's true, he might hope that Foster quits after the 2023 RWC, not in two years. And, of course, that's assuming that taking over the ABs gig is the main reason for his decision (which may not be the case).
It is understood that he is looking at an additional two years with the red and blacks which would take him to the end of 2023, a World Cup year, after which the rugby landscape – both here and overseas – may look very different, as might the world in general. -
@Tim said in Crusaders 2020:
@Machpants I don't think that staying in his comfort zone and avoiding international experience will do much for his chances.
If thats true Gatland must be next in line
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@Tim said in Crusaders 2020:
@Machpants I don't think that staying in his comfort zone and avoiding international experience will do much for his chances.
I doubt he's making a decision to re-sign (for now) to stay in his comfort zone or to avoid international experience. He may, for example, consider it wiser to look for a head coaching gig (in NZ or overseas) that starts after the next RWC, instead of mid-way through a RWC cycle.
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@Tim said in Crusaders 2020:
@Machpants I don't think that staying in his comfort zone and avoiding international experience will do much for his chances.
Razor played and coached in Ireland, France and Japan between 2003 and 2007. In his mind, he's done his OE. Not sure a spell coaching Glasgow or Italy or Georgia would add much.
None of the big international jobs are likely to be available until after 2023 RWC, as Foster's on a two year contract the ABs job is the most likely to. If it does, he's the favourite.
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@sparky Yeah - people will use "hasn't coached overseas" as a stick to beat Razor with, but it's not really true and I'm not sure it's really essential, either.
Henry's experience of coaching Wales didn't help him win in 2007 and Hansen's experience of coaching Wales (15 years earlier) didn't help him win in 2019 . However, both benefited from coaching a very good ABs side through 2008-2014 (or in fact 2004 onwards...).
In fact, Hansen's experience in coaching Wales was dire - he never beat a tier 1 team and even he pointed out he had both the world's best and worst international coaching records. I guess his time in Wales taught him humility.
In many ways, I'd rather Razor didn't take his methodologies abroad to teach the NH how he does it. I reckon they'd get much more out of it than he would.
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Weird people are finding a way to down play Robertson's decision to stay in NZ when at the same time we are lamenting the knowledge we are losing overseas. I am bloody stoked he's staying on longer, he seems to be a damn good coach and fucked if I want the likes of England getting their mits on him.
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@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
Henry's experience of coaching Wales didn't help him win in 2007
Lions and Wales.
03 to pre RWC we lost 5 times in 4 years, 3xSA and 2xAus; 38/43 games for nearly 90% winning record. The four years before we won 29/38 games.
Henry and Hansen rebuilt a side wrecked by John Mitchell. They selected players from nowhere (Smith stands out for me), and were very very dominant at international level until a certain quarterfinal. Remember the French games in 04 - Walrus was convinced we were going to be spanked by a good French side, but we smoked them all over the paddock.
The thing is that coaching Super and coaching Tests are completely different. The time you have with the players, conditioning, the quality, the motivation, the competition, the style of game are all very different. It's like arguing that a dominant Mitre10 coach should be an AB Coach.
Robertson is a very good coach, but I think Sir Graham had a point- he would benefit from exposure to the international game overseas. Still, ultimately that's up to the NZRU who can't organise a pissup with Australia at the moment.
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@nzzp Going overseas again might help Razor become a bit better AB coach - but, on the other hand it might not. Ideally, you want guys to be coaching the ABs at their peak - not spending their peak coaching some NH club (or even country).
I'm of the opinion that coaching the ABs is a fair bit different to most rugby coaching jobs, because you're going to win the majority of your games regardless - so learning about losing regularly isn't really a necessary skill.
What's needed is the ability to analyze and make the necessary tweaks to keep an elite team getting better - as well as retaining the players' confidence and managing some doubtless pretty big egos.
Interesting thing about Mitch is that it was his overseas experience that was a big part of his attraction.
JK is another who arrived back with a massive international resume, but had a pretty dismal tenure at the Blues.
And now Gats has had a bit of a shocker.
Frankly, I'd be happy with people who've proven themselves in Super rugby. I'd have been happy with Dave Rennie, without him needing to go overseas. I'd have been reasonably happy with Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown. I'd be happy with Razor - and Leon is working towards that status in my mind, though he needs another season or two of success with the Blues.
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to be fair, the overseas market is a bit restricted and an unknown at present, so the safer bet is probably to stay here.
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@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
Ideally, you want guys to be coaching the ABs at their peak - not spending their peak coaching some NH club (or even country).
Agree with most of what you say, but curious about this:
@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
ideally, you want guys to be coaching the ABs at their peak - not spending their peak coaching some NH club (or even country).
When is "peak"? More experience? More youthful innovation? Pretty hard to gauge I would have thought.
Had Hansen gone stale? Is Rennie already past it? Is Leon still learning? Robertson needs to prove more?At what age / experience level is a coach ideal?
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@Snowy Very difficult to gauge - and will be a bit different for different people.
But, when you've accumulated enough experience and wisdom - and before your energy and capacity to connect with the players has started to dissipate.
But, I reckon you could get a pretty firm consensus on most AB coaches of the past 30 years as to whether they got the job too early, too late - or timing was spot on.
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@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
@Snowy Very difficult to gauge - and will be a bit different for different people.
But, when you've accumulated enough experience and wisdom - and before your energy and capacity to connect with the players has started to dissipate.
But, I reckon you could get a pretty firm consensus on most AB coaches of the past 30 years as to whether they got the job too early, too late - or timing was spot on.
and extend that to the end. Was i fired just as i learned a valuable lesson? (most will probably say yes) Did i hang on 2 years too long?
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slight aside, but i am astounded why anyone really wants the ABs job. It probably doesn't pay that great comparable to other gigs. But the pressure is off the charts. You are expected to win every single test. You are expected to play "the right way". You are expected to do this while building depth across the park. You are expected to build depth while building combinations.
If you do even one of those things wrong, the public are in to you.
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@mariner4life A bit like being Prime Minister - or US President.
You'd just about have to be a bit mad to want it. Definitely different personality types to me.
Imagine having fluffybunnies with totally no idea coming up to you all the time, telling you where you've gone wrong and expounding their half-baked theories - while you're there thinking - "he's a fucking TIGHTHEAD prop, you twat!"
I guess you'd be able to get a bit of amusement lurking on rugby messageboards watching clueless pillocks expounding like they're the messiah!
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@Snowy said in Crusaders 2020:
@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
Ideally, you want guys to be coaching the ABs at their peak - not spending their peak coaching some NH club (or even country).
Agree with most of what you say, but curious about this:
@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
ideally, you want guys to be coaching the ABs at their peak - not spending their peak coaching some NH club (or even country).
When is "peak"? More experience? More youthful innovation? Pretty hard to gauge I would have thought.
Had Hansen gone stale? Is Rennie already past it? Is Leon still learning? Robertson needs to prove more?At what age / experience level is a coach ideal?
Hansen was down to leave at the end of the Lions, and should have. Foster could have had a crack at RWC, then we’d see from there. 2 years too long 100%
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@Machpants said in Crusaders 2020:
Hansen was down to leave at the end of the Lions, and should have.
Yes. Absolutely.
Old man shakes fist at McLeod.
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@Machpants That's one I think you'd get a pretty firm consensus on.
You've got to think he perhaps wasn't quite leaving no stone unturned the way they were in 2011 - and maybe he'd become a bit too attached to his old guard - and maybe a bit too powerful.
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@Chris-B said in Crusaders 2020:
@Machpants That's one I think you'd get a pretty firm consensus on.
You've got to think he perhaps wasn't quite leaving no stone unturned the way they were in 2011 - and maybe he'd become a bit too attached to his old guard - and maybe a bit too powerful.
The All Blacks have become addicted to stability. It has already cost us, and will now cost us again
