Black Lives Matter
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@reprobate
Yeah, call attention to black culture's internal failing and you are a racist.Call attention to a racial group as a means of comparison that has done significantly better despite being gassed by the millions in World War 2 (which was much more recently than slavery) and you're a racist.
The inter-generational poverty argument is correct as a backward looking cause, but the only way to solve it is internal attitudinal shifts toward success in society. Otherwise, 500 years from now we'll still be hearing about it. With a bunch of white liberals being totally sucked in.
I think the vast vast majority of white people in America (including Trump voters - shock gasp) are good non-racist people who want to see everyone succeed. They are not working to keep blacks down.
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@No-Quarter Complete dismissal and refusal to engage. Makes claims like the below entirely believable
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I'll pen a longer post when I have time, but the last couple of pages has made me a little bit uncomfortable.
A group of (presumably) white men from Australia and NZ going back and forth in furious agreement that racism in the US is overblown and stating the key to fixing any issues is 'not to dwell on the past'.
I think we might need to step back from time to time and recognise we (the wise internet gurus of the Fern) may not be best placed to understand these issues as well as we think we might. Or as well as the long line of prominent, intelligent commentators who hold differing views.
Not to silence anyone's viewpoint, because it's always good to have a place to air opinions. And this discussion is for everyone of every background. But that doesn't obscure the reality that the vast majority of us here haven't experienced racism in the US, and that does have an impact on how we view the situation.
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
I'll pen a longer post when I have time, but the last couple of pages has made me a little bit uncomfortable.
and maybe address the points raised in the (excellent) Berkeley letter noted below
And it's from a person of color so your dig at white men doesn't apply
It shouldn’t affect the strength of my argument above, but for the record, I write as a person of color.
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@barbarian pretty sure that's almost exactly what I've been arguing the last few pages?
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Are we now pointing out that the situation isn't black and white? That two observations can be true at the same time? That people can bee rightly outraged at the manner of the death of George Floyd, recognise community outrage and yet ponder on the benefit to the same community that destroys its own infrastructure and businesses? That historical injustices still have a bearing on the disenfranchisement of people today? That the media attention to this event (ably fanning the protests) is grossly disproportionate given other events?
That the world wide response is clearly less to do with the worth of lives than using it as a vehicle to piggyback their own grievances?
Or are we supposed to pick a side and scream from the sidelines?
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@reprobate said in US Politics:
it's about poverty. inter-generational poverty, and the shit outcomes that continue down the generations due to lack of education etc. if you grow up rich, safe, educated, then so do your kids. if you don't, neither do they. that's not complicated, and it is very much statistically verified.
just because a few people make it from shit circumstances doesn't mean the circumstances don't matter, and it doesn't mean that you have the right to accuse the rest of them of failing because of some victim mentality, or because they're black rather than asian or jewish. the arrogance of that is astonishing, it is racist as fuck, and slavery goes a bit further than discrimination.The people who are saying it's all down to a victim mentality have the same problem as the people who say it is all down to race. And it's not only blacks in America who have a so-called "mentality" problem - we still commemorate the holocaust, don't we?
Anyway, the race thing is clearly factor but, to me, it works a bit (ironically) like a race, except that, because of slavery and Jim Crow and other things, blacks in America are starting a fair way behind. You can say that Jews, Asians, Irish and Italians as groups all suffered from discrimination at various points in American history and you would be absolutely correct. The difference of course is that, even though they started behind "white" Americans in the race to success due to amongst other things racial discrimination, they still (for many reasons, which include slavery etc.) started in front of African Americans and, importantly, stopped being discriminated against earlier.
So, while I agree with the premise that we don't have "systemic racism" in places like America anymore (in the sense that we don't have legalised racism or race-based discrimination), the legacy of racism means that many (perhaps most?) African Americans are starting from so far behind that they aren't even able to take advantage of or properly participate in this race-neutral society. (I should say that the same probably also goes for Native Americans.)
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@barbarian said in US Politics:
I'll pen a longer post when I have time, but the last couple of pages has made me a little bit uncomfortable.
A group of (presumably) white men from Australia and NZ going back and forth in furious agreement that racism in the US is overblown and stating the key to fixing any issues is 'not to dwell on the past'.
I'm not sure the mood here is that racism in US is overblown. And I'd much rather be a black man in US than Uighur in China.
I can tell you that if you want to run a private club in NYC it's like Noah's Ark, you literally need to have a demographic which matches that of the City/State.
I think we might need to step back from time to time and recognise we (the wise internet gurus of the Fern) may not be best placed to understand these issues as well as we think we might. Or as well as the long line of prominent, intelligent commentators who hold differing views.
Not to silence anyone's viewpoint, because it's always good to have a place to air opinions. And this discussion is for everyone of every background. But that doesn't obscure the reality that the vast majority of us here haven't experienced racism in the US, and that does have an impact on how we view the situation.
Your last point is probably what motivated me to post on this thread, but in a different context. The vast majority of non-US #BlackLivesMatter protestors haven't experienced racism in the US and IMO they don't really know what it REALLY is they're protesting about.
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@pakman said in US Politics:
Your last point is probably what motivated me to post on this thread, but in a different context. The vast majority of non-US #BlackLivesMatter protestors haven't experienced racism in the US and IMO they don't really know what it REALLY is they're protesting about.
Some of the black people who's comments I've heard or read believe this is important, usually it's just blacks protesting about cops killing blacks but for once people of many races are protesting, in particular young white americans
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@pakman said in US Politics:
Your last point is probably what motivated me to post on this thread, but in a different context. The vast majority of non-US #BlackLivesMatter protestors haven't experienced racism in the US and IMO they don't really know what it REALLY is they're protesting about.
Some of the black people who's comments I've heard or read believe this is important, usually it's just blacks protesting about cops killing blacks but for once people of many races are protesting, in particular young white americans
Hence in UK a movement #AllLivesMatter.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@Victor-Meldrew said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
To put it bluntly, children born into poverty and raised by parent(s) that are full of (understandable) resentment towards society are far less likely to be successful and far more likely to fall into a life of crime. And then the same for their kids.
I strongly agree, but would suggest maybe race itself isn't the major factor but simply describes the demographic which is stuck in this cycle of poverty, minimal good parenting etc. And if it was all about "systemic white racism" in the US, as BLM insist, then Asian americans wouldn't be as successful as they are.
It's interesting to note that in the UK, Afro-Caribbean Britons outperform white Britons significantly in many social measures such as education & life expectancy, and the demographic with the consistently worst life-chances are the white, working class and have been for decades.
The cynic in me thinks it's easier to focus our attention onto an easily identifiable societal group, look for simplistic solutions like race quotas and feel virtuous rather than take the hard steps needed to reduce the poverty/poor parenting/low ambition issues across all of society.
Race is a major factor when asking why certain racial groups are over represented in the cycle of poverty. And extreme racism in the recent past a key part of that, whether in the States, NZ or Aus. Granted there are many other factors at play, but I don't see why people are denying that aspect of it.
Otherwise I agree with what you are saying completely. I've already said I don't believe the systems we have today are inherently racist towards any one group of people, in fact I strongly believe the exact opposite. The system by in large treats people as individuals first and we should be very careful not to change that.
But the fact remains there are certain racial demographics that are not doing as well and past injustices are a big reason for that, so the question remains what do we actually do about that?
My wife and I have had many discussions about this, especially recently with the BLM movement kicking off worldwide. For context my wife's mother is an Indigenous Australian from the Torres Straight, so this subject is close to her heart in the Australian context.
One thing we absolutely (and obviously IMO) agree on is dismantling the police, dismantling the "system", dismantling fucking everything is just a ridiculous thing to be advocating for. I don't think most people want this, but as it's a controversial thing to say the media will shine a light on those that do as that generates outrage/clicks.
We also agree that targeting solutions to lift people out of poverty by race is not helpful and tends to do more damage than good. My wife has a particular dislike of the Social Justice left victimising the hell out of her people and the psychological damage that is doing.
In saying that, one thing my wife feels very strongly about is reconnecting the disaffected youth with their culture and instilling some pride. This has been proven to get good outcomes, but at the moment a lot of what they see and hear is negative depictions of their race through the media and social media.
Also, a focus on the family unit and ensuring children grow up with a father figure seems to be another key piece of the puzzle.
But one thing that has been proven over and over again is that when the state tries to intervene they invariably make things worse. The solutions/improvements really have to be community led to have a a positive and lasting impact.
I agree with the vast majority of this.
But I really believe community attitudes are critical in all this. And not just white ones. In the UK there are some really insidious attitudes in the Indian/Pakistani/Bhangladeshi communities concerning honour. Fancy strangling your own daughter?
My nephew, who lives in Staffordshire, is white, and comes from a lower middle class background. He's 18, but like most of his mates can't see the value of education, has every excuse in the book for why his laziness isn't the reason for his failure, but still has a sense of being entitled to a good outcome.
Compare with Singapore where people commit suicide when they only get A minuses and realise they won't get into the university course of their choosing.
Probability time to sign off for now!
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@Siam said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter I really really struggle with the notion that the lives of my grandparent's grandparents have any influence on me in the year 2020.
To subscribe to that flimsy theory is to confirm that a race of people are all born inferior to those born with no "documented" slavery.
Show me a population or society where absolutely everyone is in poverty, and I'll reconsider the idea of " ancestral oppression "
You're white aren't you mate....?
Well, since you asked, here is my Pepeha:
Ko Tiheia te maunga
Ko Te Waimimi o Pekehaua te awa
Ko Ngatirangiwewehi te hapuu
Ko Te Arawa te waka
Ko Tamatekapua te tangata
Ko Whakaue raua ko Tamatera oku tupuna o mua
Ko Tawakeheimoa te Tupuna Whare
Ko Te Aongahoro te Wharekai
Ko Tarimano te Marae
Ko Haana Ngaki raua ko Te Kapaiwaho toku tupuna wahine
Ko Rangimakehu Ainsley tana tamahine
Ko HineiriMy Whakapa has Tamatekapua at the top.
I'm sorry mate, I'm Maori, just like all my cousins and uncles and auntys. Can't help it, born that way.
What does that do to the words that formed my opinion? Does it change them?
What on earth has a person's skin or dna have to do with expressing an idea?
"I am sure you can look right through NZ history and find examples of the indigenous people being screwed over by those in charge."
Can I use my very own one of these examples?
Will that give me a seat at the table to express an idea?
Will that earn me enough points to expand on my parroting of Thomas Sowell, David Webb, Coleman Hughes, Ronnie Coleman, Larry Elder, and other credentialed black american scholars and journalists?
I have no ideas or claims of my own on the US racial issue - none of us can have and that's understood - so therefore our arguments will always be sourced from someone else in America.
I've found that the intellectuals version of the tribulations of black america to be a far more compelling (and equally saddening) narrative compared to the narrative from 20 years of race grifters and news anchors and teenagers screaming systemic racism, never showing where, and yet it apparently has gotten worse. The same people in charge of the money for fighting racism are the ones always screaming how worse it's getting. hmmm
We know the miniscule value our opinions on anything we're not first hand connected to, hold - that's what the applause to photo fox was all about, and the authenticity to Crazy horse's work observations. It's a given. But the source of our info has to be open to scrutiny. scrutiny of details. I'll take Coleman Hughes over Don Lemon anyday.
My application for the brown infinity stone, (the only one I'm elligible for by birthright
So, it turns out I'm the bastard great grandson of a late Supreme Court Judge. Apparently the highest in the land at one stage.
That's my Nana's father. She's also a bastard, obviously.
Yep, ol judgey had 2 kids to my great granny, 2 years apart. Never married and then was whistled back to Auckland to earn his way towards his knighthood. Never any contact with his kids ever again except for a parcel of books and pencils prior to them starting school in the 1930's.
As mum often remarked "I wonder how many absent fathers he prosecuted or ordered to pay child support on his way through the judicial system?"
Nana did occasionally see her father on TV during coverage of Arthur Allen Thomas trials and such and it fits now that they were the only times she stopped and sat and watched the news. We were all quiet at those times, and nothing was ever said about her father while she was alive.
The herald did a tell all expose about it after Judgey's death, so I guess it's a matter for public record now. Silly nephew of Nana tried to get some money for our family secret but only succeeded in irritating the scar tissue of a nicely healed wound. The worst part was the paper getting it drastically wrong and my Nana at age 80 facing the indignity of reading about her death 2 years ago in New Zealand's premier newspaper. Aunty told me Nana just exhaled "Huurrumph", folded the newspaper and spent the rest of the day alone in the sun porch. We got an apology from the herald after Nana died but the same mistake is still there. Strike off the herald as a trusted source of accurate news.
The article is called The Judge, The Maori Princess and the secret family. Haven't heard anything in the family about granny being a princess, so thanks Herald.
So the judge shacked up with my granny. hung around for a couple of years siring 2 kids then buggered off to fame and fortune never again acknowledging his first kids who both lived to their eightys.
There's a bit of oppression there right? A shot at the victim olympics? All that white privilidge missed out on? A piece of the will? Something surely? I always wanted to be famous enough to do one of those "where did I come" from geneology tv shows...I guess Nana could have chosen to be bitter over her paternity situation. She could have passed down her hurt and trauma from her father to us. She could have filled our heads with the "realities" of white authority. Today her story would get applause and fawning from the right audience, but still it's her choice on how she deals with that pain that a powerful white man caused, through no fault of her own.
Turns out she chose to take that hurt and injustice on her own. To shield her kids from growing up bitter and pointing at things and people that denied us a perfect upbringing and family history.
Perhaps she realised she could keep the pain away from her kids and and mokopuna because times change and she knew none of her daughters would have to go through the ingnomy of watching an absent father, adulated from afar, in the future world. Different times, then and now.
Perhaps she had a choice at her kids view of the world and their place in it.
She chose that no one would ever call us victims. She chose it was her burden to bear and it all ended there with her.
It's the same message coming from Hughes, Webb, Sowell and Elder, and a large section of the black community. It's just one way of looking at this situation, and it has some merit and some familiarity to me.
So can we explore the notion of ancestral oppression and discover strong evidence that the black situation in america is primarily due to racism or due to poverty or something else?
And can we agree that a ferners skin colour plays no importance on this site whatsover? The content of their words first??
All good canefan
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@Winger said in US Politics:
@barbarian said in US Politics:
I'll pen a longer post when I have time, but the last couple of pages has made me a little bit uncomfortable.
and maybe address the points raised in the (excellent) Berkeley letter noted below
And it's from a person of color so your dig at white men doesn't apply
It shouldn’t affect the strength of my argument above, but for the record, I write as a person of color.
Fascinating read.
Thank you.
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@Frank said in US Politics:
Depends mainly on whether that racial group values education and getting ahead and are thus raised with values of graft, self denial to get ahead.
Jews, Chinese, Indian immigrants have all faced discrimination.
But their cultures place more emphasis on getting ahead than white culture and more than black culture. Those black Americans that made it getting ahead a priority and did it. I see it a cultural attitude thing, not evil whitey with his thumb on the scales. It comes down the right family values, and I'd say it is a massive advantage not just to be raised by a single mother.There's a curious comparison I heard from Sowell I think, or Elder.
Compare Black American popn with Black Caribeaan.
Descendants of slaves, look exactly the same so hard for racists to distinguish and yet Caribean blacks (on measure) are more wealthy and successful than whites and all the other minorities and in fact are 3rd to American Japs and jews as the most successful cultures.If race is the arbiter how come such contrasting performances from two identical looking groups?
The welfare laws of the 60s (?) allowing welfare to be paid only to families only at fatherless (male less) domociles also need to be chucked in the mix. The men couch surfed with mates to enable the girl to get the money. 76% fatherless children today compared to the 1930s and 1940s when black families outnumbered white with fathers present (per capita).
These changes have also been present during the race law changes.
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@antipodean racialist
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
Race is a major factor when asking why certain racial groups are over represented in the cycle of poverty. And extreme racism in the recent past a key part of that, whether in the States, NZ or Aus. Granted there are many other factors at play, but I don't see why people are denying that aspect of it.
I guess my concern is the use of "race". No problem with it's use as an identifier for a demographic experiencing inequality, but seems to me, blaming racism for that inequality is counterproductive. No race has suffered more racism in the recent past as Jews, yet they are hugely successful. Ditto Caribbean Black Americans (and Canadians).
Your point on culture is a good one and I agree, but I also think there are dangers here where we need to be aware of - where pride in one's culture gets subverted to create isolation from wider society and a victim mentality. See a lot of that in the UK among disaffected white kids.
Totally, utterly agree on community-led solutions.
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@Siam your Nana sounds like an absolutely amazing woman. Thanks for sharing.
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@Siam said in US Politics:
@Frank said in US Politics:
Depends mainly on whether that racial group values education and getting ahead and are thus raised with values of graft, self denial to get ahead.
Jews, Chinese, Indian immigrants have all faced discrimination.
But their cultures place more emphasis on getting ahead than white culture and more than black culture. Those black Americans that made it getting ahead a priority and did it. I see it a cultural attitude thing, not evil whitey with his thumb on the scales. It comes down the right family values, and I'd say it is a massive advantage not just to be raised by a single mother.There's a curious comparison I heard from Sowell I think, or Elder.
Compare Black American popn with Black Caribeaan.
Descendants of slaves, look exactly the same so hard for racists to distinguish and yet Caribean blacks (on measure) are more wealthy and successful than whites and all the other minorities and in fact are 3rd to American Japs and jews as the most successful cultures.If race is the arbiter how come such contrasting performances from two identical looking groups?
The welfare laws of the 60s (?) allowing welfare to be paid only to families only at fatherless (male less) domociles also need to be chucked in the mix. The men couch surfed with mates to enable the girl to get the money. 76% fatherless children today compared to the 1930s and 1940s when black families outnumbered white with fathers present (per capita).
These changes have also been present during the race law changes.
The Black Carribean stats are fascinating. Any idea roughly when the cohort immigrated?
I well remember being driven through the hills from Kingston to Montego Bay about 13 years ago. In the hills there are large slums. Very humbling to see. It seems that in the [60]s the bottom fell out of agriculture prices and the economics of farming went to pot, which was exacerbated by collapse of bauxite prices in the late 70s. American TV became available, and led to many moving to Kingston, which now has some of the worst crime anywhere. A few years ago driven in NYC by Jamaican taxi driver. Well spoken and interesting fella. Had good chat about the impact of Uber. It was apparent that he could do better for himself as a NYC taxi driver than back home. Good work ethic I'd say.
Could it be that the Caribean immigrants had already self selected for ambition?
Thanks for your really interesting posts, @Siam