Filling McCullums' Boots in ODIs
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="557852" data-time="1455092837"><p>
Ah well, anyway. Anyone got any other opinions on the make-up of the Baz-less Black Caps?</p></blockquote>You mean you want people to stay on topic?<br><br>
Maaayyyyte, you're dreeaaaaming. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557841" data-time="1455087883">
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<p>Rewind to the mess of 3 years ago when Taylor was dumped as skipper. Would anyone have dared imagine how things have played out since with McCullum leading and Hesson as coach?<br>
A WC final capping a fucking amazing month of cricket in NZ (out doing the 92 Young Guns in my opinion)<br>
A ton of amazing record innings and partnerships, almost too many to mention<br><strong>Most of which may never had happened if McCullum wasn't in charge</strong>.</p>
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<p>that's just speculation, and plenty of people were saying before the change that this was potentially the best group of players we had had in a very long time. the post-mccullum period will be interesting - i'd personally be surprised if the success doesn't continue without baz in charge.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>also nobody would have predicted success based on the change itself as it was handled god-fucking-awfully, and immediately followed by really embarrassing hidings in SA. it's pretty tough to predict someone (hesson) doing good things on the basis of royally fucking a few things up initially - though by and large i certainly agree he has been good since.</p> -
<p>The beauty of cricket is stats very much DO tell the story</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you'd watched a lot of cricket but never seen Baz you'd see our openers come out & think "Ok, so these guys will be looking to bat big at least one of them will bat thru to 30 overs, they'll both try to, they'll try to get the score to 70 odd off 12-15 overs get set etc as thats what EVERYONE does (see SA yesterday for example)"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then you'd look at Baz's stats & go "33 average, 150% strike rate, score a ton virtually never. OK so I'm now expecting him to smash seven shades of shit out of it & then get out WAY before 100"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Which is exactly what you'd get.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>People who say "stats don't tell the story" invariably mean "stats don't tell the story I want to hear"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Like Steve Jobs going "so I can get normal treatment & have an 80% chance of living, or shove a grapefruit up my arse and wear a crystal & 100% die. Grapefruit in the arse it is! Stats don't tell the story!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ahhh but they do Steve. They do.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="557827" data-time="1455083487">
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<p>Some guys are just better than their stats. I mean Kapil Dev was "Indian cricket" during the time that he played if you believe all the shit written about him yet averaging 29 and 30 for batting and bowling makes him inferior to our very own Cairnsy. McCullum in principle is kinda similar.....</p>
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<p>No its not. Kapil's average on subcontinent tracks was very much in line, statistically, with the best around. No other India quick was sub 30 in India, no one managed 10 wickets other than him, etc. Strike rate, economy etc. In the 80's, in India he had a better average than Imran & Akram. Every stat there is he is a HUGE outlier. Statisically just how good he was is right there. If you actually look.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Kapil is similar to McCullum in one way. He was an all time best - compared to other Indians. Globally he was just very very good. Baz was very very good compared to other Kiwis. Globally he was below average. But in both cases their stats show exactly the deal -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Kapil v other Indians - a god.</p>
<p>Kapil v Imran, Kallis, Sobers - solid but not in that league</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Baz v Greatbatch, Ryder, Guppy, Astle - right up there</p>
<p>Baz v Sachin, Waugh, Gilchrest, Dilshan, Ponting, Sewag - fucking miles off</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557824" data-time="1455083222">
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<p>Id agree with what ive heard on talk back the past days, that innings from McCullum ranks right up there with his 302.</p>
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<p>The concept of a 50 being in the ball park of a triple hundred is again what baffles me. I cannot think of another player where with a straight face a 50 would be given such high praise, particularly given the dismissal. The innings still left us needing runs at a decent clip and the winning formula required Grant Elliot to dominate Steyn which is an ambitious game plan on paper.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To me it's like lavishing Boult for snagging Finch very early in the final. He did sweet FA after that, but we didn't stand any chance without an early wicket - so it's obviously it's one of his greatest performances.</p>
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<p>If a quickfire 52 is one of the best innings of his career perhaps the hole we are filling is much smaller than even I think?</p> -
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<div><br><p>If a quickfire 52 is one of the best innings of his career perhaps the hole we are filling is much smaller than even I think?</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Yep, I can't see us missing him that much in ODIs. T20's he's irreplacable & in tests we'll struggle simply because even tho' he wasn't amazing, neither are the replacements. A 40+ average in tests for NZ is rare.</p>
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<p>But in ODIs, like for like we could open with Munro & I'd back him as-is, without even improving, to give us what Baz has. 30 off 20 balls then out. On average.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I wouldn't want us to go that route, I'd rather our top 4 be guys who have a chance of scoring 100 off 110. So Latham. You want to win modern ODIs consistently you need probably 2 guys going big now, and we can't bank on 2 of Ross, Kane & Guppy doing it every fricking time.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But in terms of directly replacing Baz (which was the original topic). Yeah, just a slogger who never threatens a ton. Job done. Added bonus that Munro can bowl a bit too.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm surprised no-one at Stuff has written a "is now the time to bring Jesse back into the fold?" article. </p> -
Wasn't just any ordinary QuickFile 50 though was it?<br>
It was in the Cricket World Cup semi final, at home against one of the best ODI bowling attacks and we were facing pretty slim odds. It propelled us into the WC Final.<br><br>
Ask anyone who went to that game if they thought it was just a run of the mill ODI 50... -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="557877" data-time="1455098561">
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<p>The beauty of cricket is stats very much DO tell the story</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If you'd watched a lot of cricket but never seen Baz you'd see our openers come out & think "Ok, so these guys will be looking to bat big at least one of them will bat thru to 30 overs, they'll both try to, they'll try to get the score to 70 odd off 12-15 overs get set etc as thats what EVERYONE does (see SA yesterday for example)"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Then you'd look at Baz's stats & go "33 average, 150% strike rate, score a ton virtually never. OK so I'm now expecting him to smash seven shades of shit out of it & then get out WAY before 100"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Which is exactly what you'd get.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>People who say "stats don't tell the story" invariably mean "stats don't tell the story I want to hear"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Like Steve Jobs going "so I can get normal treatment & have an 80% chance of living, or shove a grapefruit up my arse and wear a crystal & 100% die. Grapefruit in the arse it is! Stats don't tell the story!"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ahhh but they do Steve. They do.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>No its not. Kapil's average on subcontinent tracks was very much in line, statistically, with the best around. No other India quick was sub 30 in India, no one managed 10 wickets other than him, etc. Strike rate, economy etc. In the 80's, in India he had a better average than Imran & Akram. Every stat there is he is a HUGE outlier. Statisically just how good he was is right there. If you actually look.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Kapil is similar to McCullum in one way. He was an all time best - compared to other Indians. Globally he was just very very good. Baz was very very good compared to other Kiwis. Globally he was below average. But in both cases their stats show exactly the deal -</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Kapil v other Indians - a god.</p>
<p>Kapil v Imran, Kallis, Sobers - solid but not in that league</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Baz v Greatbatch, Ryder, Guppy, Astle - right up there</p>
<p>Baz v Sachin, Waugh, Gilchrest, Dilshan, Ponting, Sewag - fucking miles off</p>
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<p>No other Indian quick was sub 30 because they weren't very good. I can't imagine Pakistan conditions to be a hell of a lot different to India but they've produced some of the all time best.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557895" data-time="1455126019">
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<p>Wasn't just any ordinary QuickFile 50 though was it?<br>
It was in the Cricket World Cup semi final, at home against one of the best ODI bowling attacks and we were facing pretty slim odds. It propelled us into the WC Final.<br><br>
Ask anyone who went to that game if they thought it was just a run of the mill ODI 50...</p>
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<p> I was at that game and I rate it as an occasion as one of 2-3 best sporting events I've ever attended.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>However if I were to be (grudgingly) honest: the rain break had more to do with our victory than McCullum's innings or Elliot's or even me blowing the ball off trajectory so that the hairy javelin was dropped on the boundary</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="557907" data-time="1455136787">
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<p>No other Indian quick was sub 30 because they weren't very good. I can't imagine Pakistan conditions to be a hell of a lot different to India but they've produced some of the all time best.</p>
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<p>I'd hazard it has less to do with conditions & more to do with genetics.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>To head off on a tangent, it that part of Asia inter group marriage is staggeringly rare, so where in the West we are very much a mess of genes, in India & Pakistan the gene pool is usually very concetrated & its astonishing at first travelling round there how various areas are blatently genetically a mile away from each other. In India I'm pretty much guarenteed to be the talest guy in the room, especially in the south. In Lahore & north of there I'm often the shortest. Northern Pakistan is, genetically, almost your ideal fast bowler. And not surprisingly its where all of Pakistans quicks hail from. Lahore is a production line for great quicks. And at a guess I expect if you gene tested the folks from there you'd find 99% was from that area way back.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In contrast NZers will be 10% scots, 15% Maori, 27% Pom, 3% tongan, etc.</p> -
<p>I'm not a professional rugby player (cue Pocock thread) so I am not totally up to speed with Indian genetics but I thought India was a bit of a melting pot:</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full'>http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full</a></p>
<p>Edit but even India has a few tall ones:</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html</a></p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html'>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="558057" data-time="1455192272">
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<p>I'm not a professional rugby player (cue Pocock thread) so I am not totally up to speed with Indian genetics but I thought India was a bit of a melting pot:</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full'>http://genome.cshlp.org/content/13/10/2277.full</a></p>
<p>Edit but even India has a few tall ones:</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html'>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11631224/Indias-tallest-man-struggling-to-find-love-I-have-never-found-anyone-to-look-up-to.html</a></p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html'>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163617/Meet-Kulkarnis-Indias-tallest-family-combined-height-26ft-hope-set-new-world-record.html</a></p>
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<p>That study said that if you go back several 1000 years, yes, lots of genes. Thats true for almost everwhere that was part of a major continent. All through the middle east you see gingers from Alexanders guys coming through. But for the last few 100 years, no. Ie if you are a gujrati, 99/100 you are marrying a gujrati. Most likley a gujrati from within 100k of your village. Repeated all over.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A huge issue all though Asia is the tendancy to marry within your community.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It also notes that most of the population is common to central asian stock, ie munchkins.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gunner" data-cid="558064" data-time="1455212638"><p>Can someone re-name this thread something like 'breeding programmes to produce the perfect cricketer', so I don't click back in here in the hope of reading about the NZ cricket team post McCullum.<br>
Ta.</p></blockquote>
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Are you new here?
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<p>Interesting article on McCullum - sort of captures the discussion we've been having here.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/971039.html'>http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/971039.html</a></p> -
Nice run through of his test career as well<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11588290">http://nzh.tw/11588290</a>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="558108" data-time="1455225728">
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<p>Nice run through of his test career as well<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://nzh.tw/11588290">http://nzh.tw/11588290</a></p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Thats quite grim reading actually. The standout bit is the way it kept going</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Australia / SA / England - fuck all"</p>
<p>"Bangladesh / India (not <strong><em>in India</em></strong>), a ton"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Repeat.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="558388" data-time="1455279735">
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<p>Thats quite grim reading actually. The standout bit is the way it kept going</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Australia / SA / England - fuck all"</p>
<p>"Bangladesh / India (not <strong><em>in India</em></strong>), a ton"</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Repeat.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>Fuck me, they've moved Hyderabad!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Test 54, Hyderabad:</strong><br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Calibri, Candara, Segoe, 'Segoe UI', Optima, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">c Dhoni b Sreesanth 4</span><br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Calibri, Candara, Segoe, 'Segoe UI', Optima, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">c Raina b Sreesanth 225</span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="558391" data-time="1455280304">
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<p>Fuck me, they've moved Hyderabad!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Test 54, Hyderabad:</strong><br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Calibri, Candara, Segoe, 'Segoe UI', Optima, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">c Dhoni b Sreesanth 4</span><br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Calibri, Candara, Segoe, 'Segoe UI', Optima, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">c Raina b Sreesanth 225</span></p>
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<p>Yep, you are right. He did manage a big ton in India. And another in UAE which takes some doing. Tho' it was a weird test where no one wanted to play it & no one seemed sure if they could bowl bouncers etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The point about SA, Aussie, poms etc stands tho. Go one, read thru that listing, its fucking grim.</p>
so please stay on topic...
