RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool B)
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@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Finally watched it. I'm less confident now than when I actually only knew the result. I actually think the South Africans have been the better side. I think their forwards beat us, and they created more on attack. We had 7 good minutes and fuck all else.
This is how they play though - same thing in the semi in 2015. Their forwards beat us up all game with power running, but we held them out. It looked awesome, but if you don't generate fast ball, wear down defenders or suck in a heap of players it doesn't achieve much.
Same thing again in Wellington the first half this year (or maybe last year???) - they batter us physically, we get two sniffs and score two tries. Damn near win the game as a result.
We knew what they were going to bring, stood up to it well, and kept enough energy to get to teh end of the game still firing.
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@nzzp said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Finally watched it. I'm less confident now than when I actually only knew the result. I actually think the South Africans have been the better side. I think their forwards beat us, and they created more on attack. We had 7 good minutes and fuck all else.
This is how they play though - same thing in the semi in 2015. Their forwards beat us up all game with power running, but we held them out. It looked awesome, but if you don't generate fast ball, wear down defenders or suck in a heap of players it doesn't achieve much.
Same thing again in Wellington the first half this year (or maybe last year???) - they batter us physically, we get two sniffs and score two tries. Damn near win the game as a result.
We knew what they were going to bring, stood up to it well, and kept enough energy to get to teh end of the game still firing.
I honestly don’t know why anybody is the least bit surprised by the way this played out. As long as I’ve been watching tests the Boks have always brought a game that was more brute strength than finesse. That’s not to say they didn’t have skill, because they did, but that wasn’t their USP. That was being massive units who sought to dominate the opposition, so in my head the Boks have always been like this and played that way. So I had to laugh at their showing off their size and physiques as if it was a new strategy because it’s actually a reversion to type. But hey why not, it was bloody successful for most of their history.
Anyway the ABs in the past found ways to counter a much more physical SA pack and they’ll handle it again, I’m sure. If the Boks keeping picking men in the centres who are the size of wardrobes and change direction like it, that makes the job that little bit easier.
I’m much more worried about Ireland, frankly.
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@nzzp said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Finally watched it. I'm less confident now than when I actually only knew the result. I actually think the South Africans have been the better side. I think their forwards beat us, and they created more on attack. We had 7 good minutes and fuck all else.
This is how they play though - same thing in the semi in 2015. Their forwards beat us up all game with power running, but we held them out. It looked awesome, but if you don't generate fast ball, wear down defenders or suck in a heap of players it doesn't achieve much.
Same thing again in Wellington the first half this year (or maybe last year???) - they batter us physically, we get two sniffs and score two tries. Damn near win the game as a result.
We knew what they were going to bring, stood up to it well, and kept enough energy to get to teh end of the game still firing.
Not only that, in Wellie we should have won it, but for some poor handling and a freakish intercept try at the death. Even then they only managed a draw and were really happy about it. Basically their game plan revolves around waiting for us to screw up
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@Billy-Tell said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@MajorRage said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Inclined to agree with both of you.
Although all of this "See you in the final" stuff is rather silly. If things go as they are scheduled to, we first have to get past Scotland (funnier things have happened in World Cups) & then we'll have to beat an Eddie Jones coached England in the semi. That man is a world cup mastermind, and that game will be almost impossible to call.
SA are due to face the Irish in the QF. At this point in time ,I'd say the chances of an SA NZ final are < 10%.
We are not losing to Scotland. They were diabolical vs Ireland. Just as they have been awful all year. Scotland will do well just to get into a quarter final.
It could easily be the host nation in the QF. Scotland were abject, to put it very mildly. And their tartan jerseys are a disgrace
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And yet, for all that, arguably the most dangerous player on the park was their winger, and we were one very poor pass to him away from being in trouble.
It's great we won, and there were some good signs, especially on the defensive side, but it wasn't exactly a statement.
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Just a couple of more specific points.
Sam Cane is vital for us. Ardie is the energy, Cane is the muscle. His work on defense is unbelievable, constantly up off the line making solid hits.
Read had a bloody good game. It's not the Read of 4 years ago, but this version is physical as fuck, and constantly applying pressure.
When Retallick is back, which lock does he replace? I am not the biggest fan of Barrett, but he was very visable on Saturday, whereas i am not sure the last time Whitelock had a big game.
What has happened to our defensive lineout?
I'm pretty happy with that wing combo. At least as good as the Africans under the high ball, one is a bit of a spark on attack, the other is a smart footballer with a huge appetite for work. -
I watched a replay of this game last night. One thing I noticed, which wasn't as obvious to me watching the game live, was the dominant tackles from both Tuipulotu and Tu'ungafasi once they came on. Patty T really continued on from Eden Park.
Neither team will be happy with their tackle success (NZ 82% vs SA 76%).
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@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:It's great we won, and there were some good signs, especially on the defensive side, but it wasn't exactly a statement.
It was a WIN which in the context of topping a RWC Pool Group is the only statement that matters.
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@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:And yet, for all that, arguably the most dangerous player on the park was their winger, and we were one very poor pass to him away from being in trouble.
It's great we won, and there were some good signs, especially on the defensive side, but it wasn't exactly a statement.
That first 20 odd minutes of defence was great rugby and the best part about our game in my opinion. We just held them off when they had all the ball and all the momentum.
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https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=292891&league=164205
Having a browse of the player stats.
Joe Moody with a good tackling effort - along with Crotty. Beaudy and Nepo need to improve their T/MT proportions.
Beaudy and ALB topping the offensive stats.
Owen Franks will look at the props collective attacking stats and go WTF?!!!
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@Chris-B said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Owen Franks will look at the props collective attacking stats and go WTF?!!!
Our props were getting up on the saffers super fast, and cutting them down behind the advantage line. That is something mobility contributes to - not just the attacking, but shutting down defenders.
Watching that, I can see why Franks is at home
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@nzzp said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@Chris-B said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Owen Franks will look at the props collective attacking stats and go WTF?!!!
Our props were getting up on the saffers super fast, and cutting them down behind the advantage line. That is something mobility contributes to - not just the attacking, but shutting down defenders.
Watching that, I can see why Franks is at home
the big ginger laughs at this statement. jesus he was a handful.
I actually thought there was a notable difference in linespeed. We operate a completely different system, it appears we get up far enough to ensure they don't really make ground, but not so far as to put ourselves under pressure by losing shape. The Africans were out to get as far up as possible to apply pressure to ball handlers and cut off options.
Both systems worked, because both teams were forced in to kicks after repeated slow-ball phases generated fuck all.
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@mariner4life the big ginger is built like a truck and plays like one too. Fuck coming up against that.
I also agree on Cane, and losing him early to that silly HIA rule was a big deal against SA, we finished the game with three locks really as SB can't cover as much ground as Cane.
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@No-Quarter yea, i've liked that boy since he first came in to the Stormers. Good player, and hard as fuck, even when he was just a kid. Real old fashioned blood nut.
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@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:And yet, for all that, arguably the most dangerous player on the park was their winger, and we were one very poor pass to him away from being in trouble.
It's great we won, and there were some good signs, especially on the defensive side, but it wasn't exactly a statement.
Yep, but by the same token SA were a professional foul to stop a certain try and an offside intercept away from being another 14 points down, so in even more trouble.
Kolbe is some player though. SA really need to make sure they give him the ball in some space, he could be their big point of difference if they meet Ireland in the quarter.
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These are the match stats from the WR site.
https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/match/newzealand-southafrica#stats
Kitshoff made 9 carry metres from 9 runs, more than all the other props combined. Read didn't do much as a ball-carrier compared to Vermeulen. Different tactics.
You can see that we played at the right end of the field to close out the game. Good game management.
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@mariner4life said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:And yet, for all that, arguably the most dangerous player on the park was their winger, and we were one very poor pass to him away from being in trouble.
It's great we won, and there were some good signs, especially on the defensive side, but it wasn't exactly a statement.
I'm pretty much with you on this one.
I'm delighted we won, it opens up the best path of all the 8 quarterfinalists to go deep in the tournament.
I do think the best way to play ABs is how SAF played:
- forwards go-forward
- rush defence, attempt to force mistakes behind the advantage line
- contestable box kicking
I think the match was fairly tight and NZ did enough to win, and tbf maybe we could have double the margin more with some luck and different refereeing on Mapimpi and PDST.
But on the other side of the coin. In a 10 point losing margin:
- Faf's box kicking (especially) and other general play was quite poor. That is a huge hurdle in a team playing a style as described above.
- Pollard was quite quiet, and when under pressure and when he got shovelled a bit of confused ball, his contestable kicking was also quite poor.
- Kolbe stretched us out wide
- Pollard missed a sitter by his standards
- SBW charge-down brought back to an offside penalty in midfield agaisnt Louw and Mtwarawira, but if the refs misses that (ref did miss it actually, was a touch judge call) that was a 7 pointer executing exactly the desired strategy.
Happy with the win, but I'd like us to take our destiny more into our own hands as per Lions test one. I'm not comfortable with the punish mistakes strategy as Plan A. Hoping that powder is super-dry and we have more ambition than what we have shown so far.
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@Snowy said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:IIRC from the match we started with a bigger pack anyway? So where does all of the BIG SA stuff come from?
Almost like a myth (I miss the myth, great player) or even an Aura.
Yeah - according to the commentary - though I'm pretty sceptical that they've put the players on the scales before the game - or even that whoever did the research would pay anywhere near the attention to whether the player weights they google are actually sensible, as some of the people here.
I'm struggling to see where we would get size mismatches (Jaapies have a clear one in PTSD vs Ardie) and a bit of googling suggests to me that the Jaapie's pack was actually bigger.
