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taniwharugby

sadly there is a section of the NZ public that are probably not quite mature enough to have a discussion about changing the flag
 
<img src="https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11902475_737562629723635_4467866887497147826_n.jpg?oh=ba4b5554a34963232971f989d55237cc&oe=565D3E90" alt="11902475_737562629723635_446786688749714">

MajorRage

Whether people are pro-Key or not, the bit that is getting me the most angst is the focus on the cost of it.
 
From my limited research, it seems to me that the cost is 26 million NZD, and that is mainly for the cost of the referendums. But aren't the referendums going to happen anyway? Thus, it shouldn't really be a factor?
 
If you are anti something as it's going to cost money, then I get that. But if the cost is going to happen regardless, then should that really have any sort of bearing on your view? All you are really doing is voting to prove that it was a waste of money, which is kind of the anti-thesis of your overall view.

Winger

I like this one. If its not all black and white then red is the only other color too add
 
But also add the southern cross
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg'>https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg</a>
 
 
<img src="http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/news/22482/four_col_tino_rangatiratanga_flag.jpg?1408835154" alt="four_col_tino_rangatiratanga_flag.jpg?14">

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513004" data-time="1441176646">
<div>
sadly there is a section of the NZ public that are probably not quite mature enough to have a discussion about changing the flag
 
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
It doesn't help that the whole process seems to have been a bit f++ked up.
 
And these final 4 flag selections are only ok at best. A Govt appointed committee have chosen 4 flags to play it safe
And flag 1 of the selection is far too short. How it gods name did that happen? Surely someone on the committee would have noticed this
 
And if they stick with blue surely use the same or similar blue on the current flag. Not the awful blue on the black and blue flag making the final 4

taniwharugby

Some of the comments on social media where that image of JK appear are downright disgraceful, but then these are simply personal attacks and these people see anything to do with Key as the ultimate evil designed solely for self interest.
 
so how would you have done it Winger? 
 
That is YOUR opinion on the flags, so therefore you see the process as flawed. As for the Tino Rangatiratanga, I thought that wasnt even a flag for ALL Maori?
 
Flag Panel seemed a decent cross section of NZ.
 
<ul><li>Prof John Burrows (Chair), ONZM, QC</li>
<li>Nicky Bell</li>
<li>Peter Chin, CNZM</li>
<li>Julie Christie, ONZM</li>
<li>Rod Drury</li>
<li>Kate De Goldi (Deputy Chair)</li>
<li>Beatrice Faumuina, ONZM</li>
<li>Lt Gen (Rtd) Rhys Jones, CNZM</li>
<li>Stephen Jones</li>
<li>Sir Brian Lochore, ONZ, KNZM, OBE</li>
<li>Malcolm Mulholland</li>
<li>Hana O'Regan.</li>
</ul>

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513014" data-time="1441178469">
<div>
I like this one. If its not all black and white then red is the only other color too add
 
But also add the southern cross
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg'>https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg</a>
 
 
<img src="http://www.radionz.co.nz/assets/news/22482/four_col_tino_rangatiratanga_flag.jpg?1408835154" alt="four_col_tino_rangatiratanga_flag.jpg?14">
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Why would we make the national Maori flag the flag of New Zealand.

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513020" data-time="1441180623">
<div>
 
Some of the comments on social media where that image of JK appear are downright disgraceful, but then these are simply personal attacks and these people see anything to do with Key as the ultimate evil designed solely for self interest.
 
so how would you have done it Winger? 
 
That is YOUR opinion on the flags, so therefore you see the process as flawed. As for the Tino Rangatiratanga, I thought that wasnt even a flag ALL Maori agreed on?
 
Flag Panel seemed a decent cross section of NZ.
 
<ul><li>Prof John Burrows (Chair), ONZM, QC</li>
<li>Nicky Bell</li>
<li>Peter Chin, CNZM</li>
<li>Julie Christie, ONZM</li>
<li>Rod Drury</li>
<li>Kate De Goldi (Deputy Chair)</li>
<li>Beatrice Faumuina, ONZM</li>
<li>Lt Gen (Rtd) Rhys Jones, CNZM</li>
<li>Stephen Jones</li>
<li>Sir Brian Lochore, ONZ, KNZM, OBE</li>
<li>Malcolm Mulholland</li>
<li>Hana O'Regan.</li>
</ul> 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I just looked at the presentation of the final 4 and thought WTF.
And looking at the final 4 flags. They are a bit shit really. Not dreadful but uninspiring.
The color choices are wrong. Two flags are almost identical. One flag is far too short. Out of 4 flags
 
So something has gone wrong. But Im not close enough or following this that closely but will write this and might be completely wrong
 
The chair / presenter was an old man who is well past his best now for this sort of thing
 
I would have appointed a smaller committee (6 max as too many = the above outcome) with a younger (more trendy) chair who has a background in design. And at least half on the committee would need some sort fo design background. And the rest at least some appreciation of what works and doesn't work
 
For example BJ Lohore was an farmer and AB. Has he the right experience and training?
 
If I was on the committee I would have started the process by deciding on the appropriate colors
 
Black and white is a must on any final flag. No exceptions
Red but a red similar to the current flag
Maybe blue but as for red
 
So just drop any other color like green etc
 
Then the size must be right. So option would be changed to fit or dropped.
 
Goods designs would be given the choice of changing to fit or being dropped
 
But based on the above 3 of the final 4 would not qualify. And I suspect the committee would have been completely different

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="513025" data-time="1441181506">
<div>
Why would we make the national Maori flag the flag of New Zealand.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Why not?
 
But add the southern cross so its a NZ flag
 
 
<a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg" title="External link">https://www.govt.nz/...dbm-flag-22.jpg</a>
 
It looks a lot better than the flags selected above

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513035" data-time="1441184809">
<div>
Why not?
 
But add the southern cross so its a NZ flag
 
 
<a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg" title="External link">https://www.govt.nz/...dbm-flag-22.jpg</a>
 
It looks a lot better than the flags selected above
</div>
</blockquote>
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513035" data-time="1441184809">
<div>
Why not?
 
But add the southern cross so its a NZ flag
 
 
<a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/6324-dbm-flag-22.jpg" title="External link">https://www.govt.nz/...dbm-flag-22.jpg</a>
 
It looks a lot better than the flags selected above
</div>
</blockquote>
 
In your opinion, sure. I don't think it looks bad but I don't feel that the flag represents the country as a whole. It is a good flag for its current purpose.

NTA

Public vote - even with only 4 (instead of 40) flags on the line, which is actually 5 when you count "don't fucking change it" as 1 flag - is always going to be messy.
 
People aren't big into change.
 
Personally would love our flag to change, but think we'd have to get our Republic vote up first.

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="513040" data-time="1441185972">
<div>
In your opinion, sure. I don't think it looks bad but I don't feel that the flag represents the country as a whole. It is a good flag for its current purpose.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Add the southern cross and it would. Black yes Red yes Southern cross yes
 
The 4 flags could have
 
Flag 1 leave as it is BUT ADD BLACK on the end to make it the correct length
 
2 change the blue to black 
 
3 as is
 
4 the above Maori flag
 
Much better choice :good1:

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513020" data-time="1441180623">Some of the comments on social media where that image of JK appear are downright disgraceful, but then these are simply personal attacks and these people see anything to do with Key as the ultimate evil designed solely for self interest. 
 
so how would you have done it Winger? 
 
That is YOUR opinion on the flags, so therefore you see the process as flawed. As for the Tino Rangatiratanga, I thought that wasnt even a flag for ALL Maori? 
 
Flag Panel seemed a decent cross section of NZ. 
 <ul class="bbc"><li>Prof John Burrows (Chair), ONZM, QC</li><li>Nicky Bell</li><li>Peter Chin, CNZM</li><li>Julie Christie, ONZM</li><li>Rod Drury</li><li>Kate De Goldi (Deputy Chair)</li><li>Beatrice Faumuina, ONZM</li><li>Lt Gen (Rtd) Rhys Jones, CNZM</li><li>Stephen Jones</li><li>Sir Brian Lochore, ONZ, KNZM, OBE</li><li>Malcolm Mulholland</li><li>Hana O'Regan.</li></ul></blockquote>
 
I'm not sure if you saw the bleating about the abs rwc squad being announced at parliament but there's a vocal minority who are hateful jerks and they seem to be able to take fairly innocuous things and twist them is really shitty ways. Apparently Key used our parliament buildings to promote Adidas , ffs get a life.

red terror

Option No. 1 (b/w fern) looks smaller than the others. Was there not a uniform size or is that an optical illusion?
 
(Edit: reading through Winger's posts now, I guess that confirms it's shorter. Very surprised there wasn't a standardized dimension in the call for entry.)

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513033" data-time="1441183407">
<div>
 
The chair / presenter was an old man who is well past his best now for this sort of thing
 
I would have appointed a smaller committee (6 max as too many = the above outcome) with a younger (more trendy) chair who has a background in design. And at least half on the committee would need some sort fo design background. And the rest at least some appreciation of what works and doesn't work
 
For example BJ Lohore was an farmer and AB. Has he the right experience and training?
 
If I was on the committee I would have started the process by deciding on the appropriate colors
 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
So you need to be experienced in selecting flags and not too old,? What other criteria would you deem ok to select a flag? 
 
Not taking the piss, genuinely curious.
 
I havet read alot of the site, but do you know they didnt have a process they set of what each flag must say or represent?

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="513046" data-time="1441187383">
I'm not sure if you saw the bleating about the abs rwc squad being announced at parliament but there's a vocal minority who are hateful jerks and they seem to be able to take fairly innocuous things and twist them is really shitty ways. Apparently Key used our parliament buildings to promote Adidas , ffs get a life.</blockquote>
 
Yeah, John Key has his fans, but he also has some very passionate haters!! 
As I said eRlier in this thread, 
I wonder if these haters would be so against the vote, or at least the process if suggested by anyone else!

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513055" data-time="1441189793">
<div>
Yeah, John Key has his fans, but he also has some very passionate haters!! 
As I said eRlier in this thread, 
I wonder if these haters would be so against the vote, or at least the process if suggested by anyone else!
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Good question, it is quite funny reading their spittle flecked posts and then reading the polls that have at 55% preferred prime minister. This is probably a taste of what will happen when we decide to become a republic, lots of petty pointscoring and pathetic comments about the process and I shudder to think of the process of sorting out a constitution.

No Quarter

To be honest I can kind of see where Winger is coming from. I can't really comment on how good the panel was, but at the end of the day the final 4 designs are pretty uninspiring. Changing the flag is something you only want to do once, so you want to do it right. I can see myself voting against changing it on the basis that we can try again down the track and hopefully get some better alternatives.
 
I see the NZRU was blocking the use of their trademarked Silver Fern - <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11507004'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11507004</a>
 
This part of the article probably answers JC's question about copyrighting if one of Kyle's flags wins:
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 
If NZ Rugby had allowed its fern to be used on a flag and it made the final four, it would have had to assign all rights in it to the Crown at no cost.
</blockquote>

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513055" data-time="1441189793">
<div>

I wonder if these haters would be so against the vote, or at least the process if suggested by anyone else!
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'm not so sure about that. You all know I'm not Key's biggest fan but even I support the idea of looking at changing the flag. I also know plenty of folk that are huge Key supporters that are very anti change.
 
It's a really funny study of popular politics though as the 'Issue' itself is not one that is divided by political leanings so has no particular impetus by following.
If you look at the process you can also see how it was fairly well thought out to try and defuse criticism of rail-roading. Form a group of reasonably respected non political people, open the designs up to everyone (including the pisstakers and nutters), get us much public feedback as possible to narrow it down etc.....
Problem has been that because we aren't a nation of flag wavers in the first place, the middle ground is really uninspired. A more passionate feeling about change in the first place would have caused enough debate to get over some of the hurdles like 'the black flag, whether the Silver Fern is about sports, etc etc long before we were presented with 4 options that really don't include anything for people to go 'yeah, that looks great, I want that'

taniwharugby

but do you 'hate' Key...I am sure you have seen some of the stuff on Social Media/Comments sections, it is disgraceful TBH, so many articles (about any other topic) that get published, you only need scroll down the list before someone mentions their hate for Key or that it is somehow his fault (easy to spot the ones who are doing it as a joke because it has almost become a bit of a joke) regardless of the article!
 
Plenty have said it should have been Yea/nah to start with, rather than this way; but IMO that wouldn't work because if given that option, with no alternative up front, people will stick with the status quo, then there would be the conspiracy theorists who would say that if they vote yea a flag was ready and waiting to be raised, without due process, even if they thought a change was good.
 
I cant see how it could have been done much different TBH.

Sneakdefreak

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513004" data-time="1441176646">
<div>
sadly there is a section of the NZ public that are probably not quite mature enough to have a discussion about changing the flag
 
<img src="https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11902475_737562629723635_4467866887497147826_n.jpg?oh=ba4b5554a34963232971f989d55237cc&oe=565D3E90" alt="11902475_737562629723635_446786688749714">
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Heh.

The Silver Fern

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