Abortion
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@no-quarter said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
I always find it interesting that then you terminate an unborn human it is referred to as a foetus, but when someone loses an unborn child prematurely in the womb it is referred to as a baby. Seems like a human is only a baby just after it is born or if it is lost in the womb form an unplanned tragedy.
I know people close to me who have lost a child in the womb quite early, they never referred to it as losing 'our foetus', they lost their baby. Yet pro choice advocates always refer to the victims of abortion as foetuses (or embryo). Scientifically accurate but...Is a baby only used for unborn little humans that some one actually cares for and wants? The ones nobody wants are called foetuses and terminated?
Yeah, which is why I posed the question:
"if your partner was 3 months pregnant with your child which you both wanted to keep, and someone kicked her in the stomach repeatedly killing the baby inside, would you want them to be charged with assault or murder?"
Nobody has attempted to answer that one yet...
What people want in relation to their specific circumstances is for sound reasons immaterial to the application of the law. Because then instead of being about justice, it becomes retribution. Having said that I'd expect for a pregnancy that the couple wanted to take to term and have a child, they'd obviously want murder charges applied. It's a clear case of assault with the intent to terminate the gestation (or at least do enormous damage). The question then comes to the timeline; where would you draw the line? After the embryonic stage? 26 weeks?
Time to introduce the slippery slope: What if the pregnancy wasn't obvious to the assailant, or unknown to both parties? What if medical practitioner had identified a high risk that the pregnancy wouldn't go full term?
Personally, I don't have a problem with foetal homicide laws as long as the requirement is intent.
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@majorrage said in Abortion:
@no-quarter They were the standard arguments.
Her presentation was basically Baron's view. Human life starts at conception, anything after that is murder, and she had graphic details about the foetus being ripped apart etc.
So I asked her about rape, those clearly not fit for being parents, foetus where there are severe disabilities (mental and physical) etc etc. As there is no grey area with the anti-abortionists. It's black and white.
It was when I combined all 3 and said that in her view an intoxicated girl who had been raped who was 15 who fell pregnant with foetus who was going to be severely disabled, then in her view she should be forced to give birth and deal with that for the rest of her life that she got extremely upset.
as you say No Quarter, this is going to be a tiny minority ... but if the argument is black and white, then it is what it is.
It is black and white. Hence how there are laws around it. Your assertion that only one side holds a black and white view is false.
All the black and white positions are stuck with anomalies. Some are nonsense, like the claim sperm is a human to be. Others like Tim's (in regards to fertalisation ) pose trickier conundrums.
Some people get lifestyle abortions. Just not convenient to have a baby crimp the style, but the law still has definate black and white rules. -
@baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.
I got put through the grinder for making her question that.
Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?
Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.
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@majorrage said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.
I got put through the grinder for making her question that.
Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?
Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.
A couple of things, majority and minority are heavily effected by knowledge. Make everyone watch a video of an abortion and see the aftermath, then let the majority decide. Force unborn humans who die in the womb in any way to always be called babies. Women are not only terminating a pregnancy, they are killing a baby.
The reality is that the reality is never shown to the majority.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Abortion:
@majorrage said in Abortion:
@baron-silas-greenback but the argument I had was black and white. She was anti abortion, regardless, end of.
I got put through the grinder for making her question that.
Look, I live in a country where one of the biggest retailers is no longer going to sell kids clothes as boys and girls. This is only being done for a tiny minority. So basically, the minority is dictating to the majority. This is just one example. Should abortion be different?
Reality is BSG, I respect your view. But most of your fellow pro lifers don't respect mine.
A couple of things, majority and minority are heavily effected by knowledge. Make everyone watch a video of an abortion and see the aftermath, then let the majority decide. Force unborn humans who die in the womb in any way to always be called babies. Women are not only terminating a pregnancy, they are killing a baby.
The reality is that the reality is never shown to the majority.
Without wishing to trivialise an important issue, we, the Western World (includes you at the very far West) are protected from many realities of life and death. Many would freak out being made to watch a sausage being made. We live in a cosseted world.
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@baron-silas-greenback what a wierd approach.
Outrage people by the ickyness of foetal waste and change the meaning of the word baby, so that you get your way.
Straight out of the looney left playbookForce people to watch hip replacement, brain surgery and amputations too?
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@baron-silas-greenback what a wierd approach.
Outrage people by the ickyness of foetal waste and change the meaning of the word baby, so that you get your way.
Straight out of the looney left playbookForce people to watch hip replacement, brain surgery and amputations too?
Errrr ok.....
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@no-quarter said in Abortion:
Yeah, which is why I posed the question:
"if your partner was 3 months pregnant with your child which you both wanted to keep, and someone kicked her in the stomach repeatedly killing the baby inside, would you want them to be charged with assault or murder?"
Nobody has attempted to answer that one yet...
If it was deliberately aimed at ending the pregnancy, I would want them charged with killing an unborn child (yes, that's a crime here). If they didn't know the woman was pregnant, then it's hard to think of what to charge with - probably just serious assault with an effect on sentencing.
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What timeline is this?
Big corporations threatening to pull out of a state unless they stop a law which will prevent an abortion after 6 weeks.
When did abortions become such an indisputable moral good that corporations think its a good idea to try and hold a state to ransom? Looking forward to Trumps tweet telling them to go folau themselves.
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WarnerMedia - owner of HBO, CNN and the Warner Bros studio - said on Thursday that it will "reconsider Georgia as the home to any new productions" if the legislation becomes law. That echoed remarks made by Disney chief executive Bob Iger on Wednesday. He told Reuters it would be "very difficult" to keep film production in the state if abortion ban is upheld.
"I think many people who work for us will not want to work there, and we will have to heed their wishes in that regard," he said. "Right now we are watching it very carefully."
Seems reasonable to me.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
What timeline is this?
Big corporations threatening to pull out of a state unless they stop a law which will prevent an abortion after 6 weeks.
I think many people who work for us will not want to work there, and we will have to heed their wishes in that regard
There's a business interest there. But it's a really tough question - how activist should a business be?
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
What timeline is this?
Big corporations threatening to pull out of a state unless they stop a law which will prevent an abortion after 6 weeks.
When did abortions become such an indisputable moral good that corporations think its a good idea to try and hold a state to ransom? Looking forward to Trumps tweet telling them to go folau themselves.
They are just threatening, read the articles and they are just virtue signalling and left themselves plenty of wriggle room.
For example
"Ozark star Jason Bateman joined Hillbilly Elegy producers Brian Grazer and Ron Howard, who will direct the project, in vowing to cease production in Georgia if the heartbeat law goes into effect."We felt we could not abandon the hundreds of women, and men, whose means of support depend on this production - including those who directly contribute on the film, and the businesses in the community that sustain the production," Grazer and Howard said in a statement to the Hollywood Reporter.
"We see Governor Kemp's bill as a direct attack on women's rights, and we will be making a donation to the ACLU to support their battle against this oppressive legislation.""
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Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong. The real question is whether it is less bad or wrong than the alternative.
These corporations are coming out as pro-something bad or wrong. That seems to me to be a very bad strategy from folk that might be entirely too obsessed with the twitterati community. Saying nothing would do them no harm, speaking up will do them no good.
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@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
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Aren't Disney building theme parks in Shanghai and Saudi? To say this is selective outrage is the understatement of the century.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
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@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
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@antipodean would that also be true of a woman, and her view on women they don't know?
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
We live in society too, we have daughters whom we care for, we vote, we're political representatives who get voted on. It would be extremely irresponsible to not look into the issue, discuss it and try and understand it. There are extremists on both sides who refuse to take part in nuanced discussion, they shouldn't be able to control the conversation unopposed.
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@antipodean said in US Politics:
@No-Quarter said in US Politics:
@antipodean said in US Politics:
@Rembrandt said in US Politics:
Seems super bizarre to me. I'd say the overwhelming majority of people would agree at least on a fundamental level that abortion itself is a bad thing if not wrong.
Perhaps in Georgia. Most people I know keep their personal opinions to themselves if they don't outright support a woman's right to choose. Particularly men.
It's not a man vs woman thing. In fact studies have found that overall women are more pro-life than men, so I don't think men should feel like they can't have an opinion on this. It's a complex moral debate.
I don't see how men have a say on women's bodies, particularly women they don't know.
I know a bloke whose ex got an abortion against his will and it still affects him today. I don't think this is just a women's rights issue, unless your argument is that millions of pro-life women want to roll back their rights.
For what it's worth I'm pro-choice up to a point, but I'm pretty tired of the argument that men just need to shut up. It's not particularly helpful when trying to come to any kind of middle ground.