Aussie Pro Rugby
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@mariner4life said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
So what are the Wallabies chances without him? My memory is hazy, but did he make much of a difference at the last RWC?
He's far and away their best attacking player and points outlet. He's been the difference in a number of tests. This is a huge loss.
Yeah I guess they're probably in a shittier position now than they were in 2015.
Yeah, so are we though!
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This is from yesterday:
Rugby AU issues Folau with Code of Conduct breach notice
Israel Folau will have to face a code of conduct hearing if he wants to save his Australian rugby career after being issued a breach notice "warranting termination of his employment contract" by Rugby Australia. Rugby AU CEO Raelene Castle revealed that there was no specific clause within Folau's contract regarding his social media use but the fullback had been party to written agreements that he would refrain from posting in a disrespectful way after a similar incident almost a year ago. "The standard contract here in Australia for all Rugby Australia players is to sit within a standard contract that's agreed with the Players' Association and negotiated as part of the collective bargaining agreement," she said. Asked specifically whether a social media clause was included, Castle said there were other agreements in place. "(There was no clause) within the contract but there was a number of documented meetings that were put in writing, both verbally and in writing, to Israel about our expectations," she said. "Yes, he agreed to them." Rugby Australia issued the notice on Monday afternoon and Folau has 48 hours to either accept the breach or request a hearing at a later date. Should it go to a hearing, Folau's case would be heard by an independent three-person panel, following a similar process to that of Kurtley Beale in 2014.Castle said at the time of negotiating Folau's contract, she was confident the 30-year-old understood the standards that needed to be met when it came to social media. "I think we both entered into an open conversation around the contract negotiations," she said. "You start with a point of trust and hopes you can move on from there - that was certainly the very pragmatic and straight forward conversation we had in re-signing him. "We had an agreement of where the line in the sand was. "Andrew (Hore) sat down and had a meeting with him, I sat down and had a meeting with him, (Wallabies coach Michael) Cheika sat down, had a meeting with him and explained the implications of this type of posting and that the grief that it causes, the disrespect that it causes and harm that it causes for our rugby community. "I believe that was a commitment we had but that's clearly not Israel's view." There has not been a specific charge made public but Castle said the high level breach was a result of a number of issues under the code of conduct.A number of Wallabies players liked the post on Instagram and many of his Waratahs teammates are also followers of the Christian faith, something Castle and her NSW counterpart Andrew Hore were quick to dismiss religion as the key element in the decision. "This is not a religious discussion, this is a discussion around the employee, employer relationship and the values in the contractual arrangements within that agreement," she said. "That's on the basis on which we have served him a breach notice." -
@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@mariner4life said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
So what are the Wallabies chances without him? My memory is hazy, but did he make much of a difference at the last RWC?
He's far and away their best attacking player and points outlet. He's been the difference in a number of tests. This is a huge loss.
Yeah I guess they're probably in a shittier position now than they were in 2015.
Yeah, so are we though!
Yes but this isn't about us it's about them. Don't be so self-centred
Tbh I think Aus are the least of our worries.
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Asked specifically whether a social media clause was included, Castle said there were other agreements in place.
"(There was no clause) within the contract but there was a number of documented meetings that were put in writing, both verbally and in writing, to Israel about our expectations," she said.
"Yes, he agreed to them."
I'm not sure Raelene understands contracts.
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'm not sure Raelene understands contracts.
I'd imagine there are requirements an employer must fulfill under the Fair Work Act before they can terminate an employee.
So in his numerous briefings, warnings etc. they are covering themselves under the law if they then decide to sack him.
My understanding is there isn't a specific clause in his contract, but he is required to adhere to the RA Inclusion Policy.
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@barbarian yeah I expect if Aus is anything like NZ, the rights of employees are well protected and employers need to do everything by the book, cant just sack someone cos they piss you off anymore.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'd imagine there are requirements an employer must fulfill under the Fair Work Act before they can terminate an employee.
So in his numerous briefings, warnings etc. they are covering themselves under the law if they then decide to sack him.
My understanding is there isn't a specific clause in his contract, but he is required to adhere to the RA Inclusion Policy.If you're required to adhere to policies, that's mentioned in your contract. Or it's a variation. One that requires the same consideration.
I'll also point out religion is a protected attribute.
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'll also point out religion is a protected attribute.
But they wouldn't be firing him because he is a Christian. They'd be firing him because he breached their policy and ignored warnings not to do what he did.
The fact that it was his religion that compelled him to act in that way is irrelevant, under my very limited understanding of contract law.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'll also point out religion is a protected attribute.
But they wouldn't be firing him because he is a Christian. They'd be firing him because he breached their policy and ignored warnings not to do what he did.
The fact that it was his religion that compelled him to act in that way is irrelevant, under my very limited understanding of contract law.
It's pointless having religion as a protected attribute if you can't exercise it. I'd also say that quoting biblical passages would reasonably come under such a position. I'm also not convinced it discriminates, harasses or bullies.
So we have two competing protected attributes (because RA doesn't give a flying fuck about atheists). I'm more interested in the legal outcome than I am about someone's hurty feelings or Izzy's career.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'll also point out religion is a protected attribute.
But they wouldn't be firing him because he is a Christian. They'd be firing him because he breached their policy and ignored warnings not to do what he did.
The fact that it was his religion that compelled him to act in that way is irrelevant, under my very limited understanding of contract law.
We're not firing you because you're gay. We're just firing you because you're hanging out with flamboyantly gay people, and our sponsor's don't like it.
We're not firing you because you're in a union. Just because you ignored our reasonable requests not to protest in your own time. Sorry, our sponsor's are capitalists and don't like it. We don't tolerate communists here.
There are real limitations to what you can do to your employees outside work time. Courts may take a dim view of trying to limit religious (or political) speech, even if it is offensive.
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that he would refrain from posting in a disrespectful way after a similar incident almost a year ago.
If there is no written clause and the gist of the 'agreement' is this then he should be in the clear. It's only peoples interpretation of intention that is causing outrage. His intent could very well be that he loves gays (and everyone else he mentioned) so much that he wants to help them avoid hell, in his mind not warning people would be what is disrespectful.
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@Rembrandt Cheika coming out and saying he won't pick him is massive. Lawyers will ahve a field day with a lack of due process in that one
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'll also point out religion is a protected attribute.
But they wouldn't be firing him because he is a Christian. They'd be firing him because he breached their policy and ignored warnings not to do what he did.
The fact that it was his religion that compelled him to act in that way is irrelevant, under my very limited understanding of contract law.
It's pointless having religion as a protected attribute if you can't exercise it. I'd also say that quoting biblical passages would reasonably come under such a position. I'm also not convinced it discriminates, harasses or bullies.
So we have two competing protected attributes (because RA doesn't give a flying fuck about atheists). I'm more interested in the legal outcome than I am about someone's hurty feelings or Izzy's career.
He can excercise it, just not in the way he did, while contracted to RA/Waratahs. He can still go to church, baptise people in his backyard, say whatever he likes in a private setting etc etc
Atheism is covered by the freedom of religion. The freedom includes the right not to have a religion.
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@Stargazer said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
I'll also point out religion is a protected attribute.
But they wouldn't be firing him because he is a Christian. They'd be firing him because he breached their policy and ignored warnings not to do what he did.
The fact that it was his religion that compelled him to act in that way is irrelevant, under my very limited understanding of contract law.
It's pointless having religion as a protected attribute if you can't exercise it. I'd also say that quoting biblical passages would reasonably come under such a position. I'm also not convinced it discriminates, harasses or bullies.
So we have two competing protected attributes (because RA doesn't give a flying fuck about atheists). I'm more interested in the legal outcome than I am about someone's hurty feelings or Izzy's career.
He can excercise it, just not in the way he did, while contracted to RA/Waratahs. He can still go to church, baptise people in his backyard, say whatever he likes in a private setting etc etc
So your position is people can have free exercise of religion as long as they do it the way you tell them they can? So I guess homosexuals can be secretly gay in their own time..?
Atheism is covered by the freedom of religion. The freedom includes the right not to have a religion.
I think you're missing my point.
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@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rembrandt Cheika coming out and saying he won't pick him is massive. Lawyers will ahve a field day with a lack of due process in that one
Agreed. It presupposes the outcome of the process they're yet to have. For an organisation swimming with lawyers, they seem bereft of good counsel.
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@nzzp A coach doesn't have to pick a player. All RA have to do is pay his wages if he still has a contract.
If Cheika's reason for not picking Folau is that he is divisive, or his behaviour otherwise negatively impacts the team, that is totally valid. -
@Stargazer said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@nzzp A coach doesn't have to pick a player. All RA have to do is pay his wages if he still has a contract.
If Cheika's reason for not picking Folau is that he is divisive, or his behaviour otherwise negatively impacts the team, that is totally valid.Agreed. But given the context and timing, you're not going to be able to make the argument that that is your reasoning.
All Chieka had to do was say he can't comment while it's going through the RA process. Don't these clowns get media training?
