New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2
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@rotated said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@KiwiPie said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
And for extra cricketing fun, which 2 openers who played 10 games or more have the lowest average? There are 15 averaging below 30 so there are a few to choose from!
The Braces coaching era will have a few; he was pretty pig headed and those guys had multiple lives. How, Cumming, Bell, Papps.
Spearman for sure was sub 30 with one century but may have only played 8-9 tests?
Spearman never got a test ton, only an ODI one (might have managed 2 in the end?)
The problem with the Bracewell era wasn't so much the multiple lives as it was the musical chairs. Each of those four had an much talent as Raval does (How probably more), but never got time to settle (and all except maybe Papps, lacked Raval's application).
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A right-handed opening batsman, Spearman made his international debut for New Zealand in a Test Match in December 1995 against Pakistan at Christchurch. He was never able to secure his spot in the side and only scored one Test hundred, an innings of 112 against Zimbabwe.
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@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
Spearman never got a test ton, only an ODI one (might have managed 2 in the end?)
As Tim pointed out he did (barely) against the Zimbots. The partnership with Twose is one of the rare 200 opening stands which is why it's lodged in the memory bank. Also was going to a lot of games at EPII those years and was always a big Spearman fan.
The problem with the Bracewell era wasn't so much the multiple lives as it was the musical chairs. Each of those four had an much talent as Raval does (How probably more), but never got time to settle (and all except maybe Papps, lacked Raval's application).
Agree with that. It was almost a rock paper scissors type scenario. Generally we had three types of openers during that period; natural talents, red ball specialists and domestic cricket dominators (with some cross over between the latter two).
We would pick a natural talent on a mix of style and ODI form like Vincent, get frustrated with him then decide we needed someone who was tailor made for the longer version of the game (i.e. is bereft of scoring shots)... enter Michael Papps, oh he literally gives his wicket away in frustration after making 3 off 30... we need someone who is a proven commodity at making big scores in four-day cricket Matthew Bell has put together two big seasons with the bat we can bring him back... oh just because you can score double tons in the Shell Trophy doesn't mean you can at test level we need someone who has proven they can handle international bowling... Jamie How had a good ODI series against England let's slot him in... round and round we go.
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@Chris-B said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
John Bracewell?
What about Richard Collinge - he had at least one good score at 11?
Chris picked it - John Bracewell at 10 and Collinge at 11 complete the team
Turner
Sutcliffe
Williamson
Taylor
Ryder
Coney
Cairns
Vettori
Smith
J Bracewell
Collinge -
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@Chris-B said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@KiwiPie Helps to be old.
I played a bit of cricket with Brian Hastings' nephew, many years ago, and the famous partnership was regularly mentioned.
I remember reading about it (also old) and at that time, 10th wicket partnerships of any significance were pretty rare.
Any thirst for another rolling quiz today to fill the time until the next classic Black Caps v Bangles encounter? 5 up votes secures the deal!
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ha ha I reckon it'll get to 4 then just sit there occupying the crease and frustrating the bowlers!
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@Paekakboyz said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
ha ha I reckon it'll get to 4 then just sit there occupying the crease and frustrating the bowlers!
Hope so - I haven't got a question yet .....
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@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@KiwiPie said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
It wasn't the two Blairs (Hartland and Pocock) was it? Not sure if they played enough games though. They were bad enough that Bryan Young was considered a reliable opener for a period though.
Pocock is a YES - Hartland is poised on 9 games though with the outstanding average of 16.83
Trevor Franklin then? I remember being shocked by his average given the reverence that he and John Wright get as an opening pair (not that it's undeserved, shows how much the game has changed, and probably also how much our standards have risen)
Franklin and Wright don't get much, if any, reverence as an opening pair.
Unless by reverence you mean people being surprised to find out that it is NZ's most successful opening partnership.
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@MN5 said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Godder said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
Franklin and Wright had tremendous stats as a pair.
According to who ? were our standards really that bad that words like that get thrown around ?
According to cold hard stats. I thought you just professed to being a stats nerd earlier in the thread.
11th best in all of test history (by this criteria):
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@nzzp said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@KiwiPie said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
Chris picked it - John Bracewell at 10 and Collinge at 11 complete the team
Could you psot the averages please? Keen to see what our stars look like:)
Sorry I didn't note the averages when I set the list - from memory Latham isn't far behind the openers, that last test didn't help him. Taylor not far ahead of Crowe, Ryder was over 50, and both Bracewell and Collinge were over 20 (or just under 20!). You'll have to Statsguru it yourself ....
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@Rapido said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@KiwiPie said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
It wasn't the two Blairs (Hartland and Pocock) was it? Not sure if they played enough games though. They were bad enough that Bryan Young was considered a reliable opener for a period though.
Pocock is a YES - Hartland is poised on 9 games though with the outstanding average of 16.83
Trevor Franklin then? I remember being shocked by his average given the reverence that he and John Wright get as an opening pair (not that it's undeserved, shows how much the game has changed, and probably also how much our standards have risen)
Franklin and Wright don't get much, if any, reverence as an opening pair.
Unless by reverence you mean people being surprised to find out that it is NZ's most successful opening partnership.
Maybe it's a confirmation bias - the only people who have every mentioned them to me have spoken extremely highly of them (but then they're hardly going to mention them if they were just mediocre).
I just remember the first time I saw Franklin's average being surprised at how low it was given how much that partnership had been talked up.
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@Rapido said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@MN5 said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Godder said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
Franklin and Wright had tremendous stats as a pair.
According to who ? were our standards really that bad that words like that get thrown around ?
According to cold hard stats. I thought you just professed to being a stats nerd earlier in the thread.
11th best in all of test history (by this criteria):
Wow, fuck me days, ok I stand corrected, can't argue with that.
I cannot believe a guy who averaged 23 is 11th on the list, it's not like Wright had a Sehwag/Warner type average or strike rate to offset that the the other end either but in terms of doing the job of seeing off the new ball obviously they were the business.
I am legitimately shocked that they'e ahead of Greenidge/Haynes and Hayden/Langer.....particularly the latter two, I guess from memory often one went relatively cheaply while the other flourished ? ( 53 test hundreds between them )
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OK I have a question (obviously expecting that many votes was too much!).
And of course it the same question as last time - except now it is for ODIs - 1-11 of the players with the highest batting average in that position - minimum 20 games in that position. Presuming that for the many times that the lower didn't bat, then it was the named batting order on the team sheet.
Lower in the batting order is really tough to get - and one player appears in the team twice. Go!
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@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Rapido said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@KiwiPie said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
@Cyclops said in New Zealand v Bangladesh Test #2:
It wasn't the two Blairs (Hartland and Pocock) was it? Not sure if they played enough games though. They were bad enough that Bryan Young was considered a reliable opener for a period though.
Pocock is a YES - Hartland is poised on 9 games though with the outstanding average of 16.83
Trevor Franklin then? I remember being shocked by his average given the reverence that he and John Wright get as an opening pair (not that it's undeserved, shows how much the game has changed, and probably also how much our standards have risen)
Franklin and Wright don't get much, if any, reverence as an opening pair.
Unless by reverence you mean people being surprised to find out that it is NZ's most successful opening partnership.
Maybe it's a confirmation bias - the only people who have every mentioned them to me have spoken extremely highly of them (but then they're hardly going to mention them if they were just mediocre).
I just remember the first time I saw Franklin's average being surprised at how low it was given how much that partnership had been talked up.
Franklin was a very limited player (at test level). He played almost no shots. He had a very good FC record for Auckland and maybe would have improved his test record over the next few years but he was one of those who retired quite early as he found Martin Crowe as captain un-enjoyable*.
For about 2 years he played at a time when John Wright was in god mode in 1990 to 1991.
John Wright, who had spent most of his career as a very stodgy opening batsman, changed his stance in 1990 and increased his scoring rate by about 50%.
Franklin playing almost no shots and surviving about 2 hours per innings, plus John Wright in later career god mode - formed a very good partnership. One of those quirks of history.
Wright in matches involving Trevor Franklin:
(*according to K-Rud's book).
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This scorecard is a fairly good example of 1990-91 version of John Wright.
In a match missing Martin Crowe. Wright takes control of a 4th innings run chase. Scoring 64% of the innings runs (and 67% of the opening partnership) on a pitch John Bracewell had just shown was starting to play up.
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