Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?
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@rotated said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@canefan said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
I believe it is unfair to judge him based on whether he wins the RWC or not, only 3 coaches on that list (including the man himself) have coached a winning RWC AB team
What if Hansen's trajectory as head coach is the same as John Hart's except twice as long?
John Hart never won a RWC. Hansen never experienced a year like 1998 (IIRC?) When we lost. A lot
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@rotated said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@canefan said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
I believe it is unfair to judge him based on whether he wins the RWC or not, only 3 coaches on that list (including the man himself) have coached a winning RWC AB team
What if Hansen's trajectory as head coach is the same as John Hart's except twice as long?
well, i guess, soon they will both be ex-All Black coaches, so you are right there. Just wrong everywhere else
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@canefan said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
John Hart never won a RWC. Hansen never experienced a year like 1998 (IIRC?) When we lost. A lot
John Hart won in South Africa and lost one game in the first half of his tenure. I would say in terms of being outplayed for long stretches of the season this year was the worst since 1998. We would have nudged the same win/loss record with a dropped ball in Pretoria and a dodgy TMO call (or onside defender) at Twickers.
I'm not arguing the relative merits of Hansen here, simply pointing out despite seven years of good results his legacy is by no means set in stone - the NZ rugby public is that fickle. If we lose the RWC the historic losses to Ireland and blown Lions series will be looked at in retrospect as massive failings and warning signs. Similarly if Hart's team won 1999 his tenure is viewed as three great years and a tough injury ravaged year where they lost a lot of experience and were a bit unlucky.
The one huge difference regardless of the outcome is obviously is that Hansen has lasted twice as long and still has the support of the team and board. Lose the Bledisloe along the way or lose the first pool game in 9 World Cups and it might be a different story.
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@rotated said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@canefan said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
John Hart never won a RWC. Hansen never experienced a year like 1998 (IIRC?) When we lost. A lot
John Hart won in South Africa and lost one game in the first half of his tenure. I would say in terms of being outplayed for long stretches of the season this year was the worst since 1998. We would have nudged the same win/loss record with a dropped ball in Pretoria and a dodgy TMO call (or onside defender) at Twickers.
I'm not arguing the relative merits of Hansen here, simply pointing out despite seven years of good results his legacy is by no means set in stone - the NZ rugby public is that fickle. If we lose the RWC the historic losses to Ireland and blown Lions series will be looked at in retrospect as massive failings and warning signs. Similarly if Hart's team won 1999 his tenure is viewed as three great years and a tough injury ravaged year where they lost a lot of experience and were a bit unlucky.
The one huge difference regardless of the outcome is obviously is that Hansen has lasted twice as long and still has the support of the team and board. Lose the Bledisloe along the way or lose the first pool game in 9 World Cups and it might be a different story.
Mate you've been at the Xmas Sherry haven't you.
Hart did phenomenally well in 96/7 but largely with an inherited team that he grafted a couple of players on to.
But 98 wasn't some sort of blip - it was arguably the worst year in AB history. We lost 5 tests in a row FFS
As soon as Hart had to actually coach / select his divisive nature became apparent. He was clutching at straws imagining he could pluck a rabbit out of a hat a la Kirwan.
Some of his rank bad decisions - off the top of my head. Appointing Randell capt and then asking him to play #8. Dropping Kronfeld for Mark Carter, dropping Jones for Royce Willis, assholing Bunce out without having a fucking clue who was going to replace him.
The atmosphere within the team by 99 was toxic. I don't think you can possibly compare Hart with Hansen or any of the other coaches of te professional era except for Mitchell.
Hansen's done an amazing job in terms of culture and all the other soft skills whilst replacing legends (something Hart failed at abjectly) and continuing to fashion an amazing winning record.
Hart spent eight years undermining the 2 previous AB coaches with the support of the likes of Eddie Tonks and then when he got his chance failed miserably.
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@dogmeat said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
dropping Jones for Royce Willis,
Agree with most of that, but Maxwell took Jones' place and then it was down to who made a better reserve - Willis had more impact. Also wasn't Kronfled dropped for Blowers on occasion and not Carter? One of Carter's two test in 1998 was as reserve replacement for Kronfeld.
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@rotated said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@tordah said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
and both had tremendous success with NZ U20s to boot
The 2016 Under 20's World Cup effort was the worst performance by one of our men's XVs at an IRB event.
Ah, dind't remember Robertson had them twice. Well, Rennie was good, haha
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@dogmeat I think you might be massively underestimating the difficulty for an AB side (as favourites) to exit the World Cup in a way that the coaches reputation will survive the autopsy.
@dogmeat said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
Hart did phenomenally well in 96/7 but largely with an inherited team that he grafted a couple of players on to.
Agreed, Hansen did phenomenally well in the first half of his tenure with an inherited team - thus the comparison.
But 98 wasn't some sort of blip - it was arguably the worst year in AB history. We lost 5 tests in a row FFS
Failing to win the Lions series for only the second time in 12 tours will be considered historically bad. Being the only coach to lose to Ireland (twice) will likely look historically bad 20 years later if things revert to type.
As soon as Hart had to actually coach / select his divisive nature became apparent. He was clutching at straws imagining he could pluck a rabbit out of a hat a la Kirwan.
That is a fair criticism and key difference. Most would agree that rightly or wrongly if things go pear shaped under Hansen it will be because he is too set in his ways and refuses to change course.
Some of his rank bad decisions - off the top of my head. Appointing Randell capt and then asking him to play #8. Dropping Kronfeld for Mark Carter, dropping Jones for Royce Willis, assholing Bunce out without having a fucking clue who was going to replace him.
This goes back to forgetting how brutal an RWC autopsy will be. The tale is yet to be told obviously but with ~8.5 spots up for grabs in the starting XV there is still plenty of latitude for selections that will be argued years later.
Kaino at lock and the Lions backline selections will be a very good start. If he manages to leave Akira at home, pick Fifita at 6 and SBW at 12 for the RWC that will be more than enough fuel to the fire. That's even without the possibility we might lose a tight one in part down to Barrett's kicking which Hansen has had no problem with.
The atmosphere within the team by 99 was toxic. I don't think you can possibly compare Hart with Hansen or any of the other coaches of te professional era except for Mitchell.
Hansen's done an amazing job in terms of culture and all the other soft skills whilst replacing legends (something Hart failed at abjectly) and continuing to fashion an amazing winning record.
Hart spent eight years undermining the 2 previous AB coaches with the support of the likes of Eddie Tonks and then when he got his chance failed miserably.To me it's less about the professional vs amateur eras than pre-2003 when AB coach was appointed by the unions which meant provincial horsetrading was part and parcel of getting the office vs the largely executive appointment than it is now. I'm hardly going to criticize Hart or anyone for being a product of their era and the process at the time.
The fact Hart's tenure is seen by you (and most) as a miserable failure despite two near-perfect years and the illusive SA tour win kind of proves the point. Mitch is a failure despite winning back the Bledisloe. Henry was a failure in 2007 despite the Lions Series and Grand Slam and effecting most of the culture change and return to consistency that you are giving to Hansen.
You are telling me Hansen's reputation is going to survive because he consistently won games in a tournament between the 5th, 6th and 10th best teams in the World?
If the ABs lose next year the general consensus will be after McCaw & co left what happened? They started losing to teams they've never lost to before, couldn't win the Lions series and then lost the RWC. Fin.
FWIW I think Hansen has been a great coach. I would have appointed him at the time and wouldn't have deviated. Overall I think we played better rugby under Henry, but obviously Henry's mainstream reputation completely changes if we concede a penalty against France.
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@rotated I think that the rugby public are more forgiving these days, once we got the monkey off our back. Hansen has proven himself to be a good man manager and generally a good judge of talent. He had the benefit of a core of all time great players but was able to retool the team from 2011 to win his own cup as head coach in 2015. There was always going to be a drop when players like McGod, DC, Smith and Nonu left, but we continued to win TRC titles and generally bossed the NH teams on the EOYTs. Time will tell but even if he fails to bring home Bill IMHO he's in the conversation for best AB coach. Winning the cup will only strengthen his claim
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@rotated said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@canefan said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
John Hart never won a RWC. Hansen never experienced a year like 1998 (IIRC?) When we lost. A lot
I'm not arguing the relative merits of Hansen here, simply pointing out despite seven years of good results his legacy is by no means set in stone - the NZ rugby public is that fickle. If we lose the RWC the historic losses to Ireland and blown Lions series will be looked at in retrospect as massive failings and warning signs. Similarly if Hart's team won 1999 his tenure is viewed as three great years and a tough injury ravaged year where they lost a lot of experience and were a bit unlucky.
I see where you're coming from with this - and if Hansen has a disastrous final year then his legacy won't be quite as good as it looks right now - where I think a lot of people have him down as the AB's greatest ever coach. If he wins the 2019RWC, I think you can pretty much put a seal on that.
Even with a disastrous year - somehow losing the Bledisloe, the 4N and going out in the QFs of RWC - I don't think Hansen would remotely fall back to Hart's level - though Sir Ted, Sir Fred and Sir BJ (can't get the third rhyme) would probably slide back in front.
Hart's problem was that half the country couldn't stand him when he started and his other problem was that he'd hardly coached for about a decade when he started. On the first point, people were happy to pile into him when he lost (much like Mitch).
Shag's already got the redemptive Cups in the bag.
On the Lions, history tends to forget the details - but, the second test will pretty much be remembered as Sonny-Bill burning the cake at the Caketin (much like Rodney at Rustenburg).
Third test - the outside backs were missing SBW, Crotty, Ioane and BFA, plus Kaino got carded - and it still took dodgy reffing of 1905 calibre to deny us!
For me, it was an indicator that we weren't quite as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought - and our much vaunted depth isn't quite what we thought.
All that said - I reckon we're still a pretty good chance to win next year.
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@chris-b said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
For me, it was an indicator that we weren't quite as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought - and our much vaunted depth isn't quite what we thought.
We also had to test our injury depth. Laumape debuted in Test 1 off the bench - and BFA disappeared for the series. From an injury front, the Lions tour was spot on for them, so well done Gats for getting lucky!
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@nzzp The Lions did have a few injury problems of their own, but not to the same degree as the ABs. Hogg, for example, was expected to be the starting fullback. Billy Vunipola didn't even make the tour. A few others were injured before the 2nd test.
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All Blacks: Joe Schmidt rules out NZ coaching job after World Cup
Newshub (and Stuff in a similar article) gets it's info from the Independent. If you, like me, prefer to read the original article, here's the link:
Six Nations 2019: Joe Schmidt committed to year out of rugby but refuses to rule out Lions tour job
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@Stargazer said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
All Blacks: Joe Schmidt rules out NZ coaching job after World Cup
Newshub (and Stuff in a similar article) gets it's info from the Independent. If you, like me, prefer to read the original article, here's the link:
Six Nations 2019: Joe Schmidt committed to year out of rugby but refuses to rule out Lions tour job
Relevant paragraphs:
Follow last year’s Six Nations Grand Slam triumph and November’s victory over reigning world champions New Zealand, Schmidt is seen as a leading contender for the Lions role, which is due to be selected next year. The Kiwi confirmed that his desire to take at least a year out of rugby remains in place in order to enjoy time back home with his family, but made it clear that he does not know what lies beyond 2020.
“That is certainly the short-term plan, to not be involved in coaching,” Schmidt said. “Certainly not for 12 months and I'd say quite likely longer than that. We have a couple of family-related projects that we want to work our way through. I don't spend a lot of time at home already, so it's probably high time I did.
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@Machpants said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
I'll put it here, Gatland seems to think he needs to do some Super Rugby time first. Anyway, why don't we get more interviews like this seems to be from the preview!
I know he's been a bit of a whinger, but the guy can coach. Besides, if Shag he can change his persona Gatland can, and he could be of value. If Fozzie gets the gig what are the chances of Gats coming in as an assistant?
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Gatland is a highly experienced and successful international coach. I suspect he will apply for the All Blacks job after RWC. He deserves an interview for this job, but will obviously need to talk about his lack of involvement coaching in New Zealand.
It looks like Joe Schmidt has ruled himself out of the job. Hints that he will take a break in early 2020 then look to coach the B&I Lions in South Africa
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12200911
Less interested in Hansen daring to have a personality at an off the record fundraiser but this tidbit in the second paragraph at the bottom.
"[Schmidt] is a good coach and he is a mate. We've done a lot of coaching against each other here in New Zealand and at one stage we nearly coached Auckland together with Graham [Henry]."
I'm guessing by Auckland he means the Blues and that was going to be the back up plan if Mitch got reappointed?
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Drew Mitchell had a fucking sook about this. waaaah how disrespectful! Fuck champ, it wasn't even a bad sledge, and qualified it pretty much instantly.
And it's something most Australian's say about Chieka too. Fuck me no wonder pro sportsmen are so boring. God i miss character.
And stories like this will be the death of the sportsmans lunch.
