Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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@mn5 Being an All Black is not just another job though.
It is a position of great privilege and of clear cultural significance to New Zealand. If you think it's just another job and a stepping stone to higher pay and a better job then I reckon you've got no business being there in the first place.
Fuck those guys - they are sell outs and deserve to be treated as such.
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 Being an All Black is not just another job though.
It is a position of great privilege and of clear cultural significance to New Zealand. If you think it's just another job and a stepping stone to higher pay and a better job then I reckon you've got no business being there in the first place.
Fuck those guys - they are sell outs and deserve to be treated as such.
That's your view but I can see it being increasingly less prevalent as time goes on.
Again, you're not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. For all any of us know he might be treated like shit. None of us really know these guys and we sure as shit don't have a right to try and dictate what they should do.
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Are these Euro contracts guaranteed money? (Just asking.)
Seems to me these players arenβt foolish - this is the concussion-era β they can see one head slam on the turf ending a career and paydays evaporating in a puff of smoke, then itβs back to work on a construction crew for 1/20th the salary.
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@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
You see, my view is classically Tocquevillian - that the liberal-democratic-capitalist matrix that we all inhabit depends for its liveability upon pre-liberal forces and habits, unchosen obligations and allegiances: the communities of tribe and family.
But, I fear that liberalism has dissolved all these inheritances, leaving only a selfish individualism and soft bureaucratic despotism locked in a strange embrace.
It will reduce rich cultures to consumer products, smash social and familial relations, and leave us all the isolated and mutually suspicious inhabitants of an "anticulture" from which many genuine human goods have fled.
Which seems a bit like what is happening @Tim?
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
You see, my view is classically Tocquevillian - that the liberal-democratic-capitalist matrix that we all inhabit depends for its liveability upon pre-liberal forces and habits, unchosen obligations and allegiances: the communities of tribe and family.
But, I fear that liberalism has dissolved all these inheritances, leaving only a selfish individualism and soft bureaucratic despotism locked in a strange embrace.
It will reduce rich cultures to consumer products, smash social and familial relations, and leave us all the isolated and mutually suspicious inhabitants of an "anticulture" from which many genuine human goods have fled.
Which seems a bit like what is happening @Tim?
Can you try and get your point across with less big words please? I'm just a simple bloke.
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You're all looking at the guys that have left; I think there have been and still are plenty that stick around. I don't think the significance of the jersey has diminished that much in favour of the coin as some of you seem to suggest.
Crotty stayed and has become an incumbent. Todd still getting caps every season (may surpass Savea if the latter doesn't improve), Tuipulotu unlikely to become a regular starter, but still there; Romano still getting picked despite his age; Toomaga-Allen (admittedly plagued by injury, but I don't see him leave any time soon), Crockett (same as Romano). Even more on the outer fringes are players like Coltman and Parsons. All could be forgiven if they'd leave for a better paid contract overseas. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them do this year, like Sops. Doesn't mean the jersey means less to them; it may just mean that they are realistic about their place in the pecking order and their chances to be picked (as a starter or sub).
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
Not the same situation. None of Luatua, Piutau or Sopoaga were AB starters.
Beaudie and Brodie would be 2 of the highest paid ABs and most influential players for the best team in the world.
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@kiwimurph It's just an extension of the trend and a matter of time before we lose someone elite.
In fact, it's already happened with Carl Hayman - we just didn't notice that badly because Owen Franks happened to stick his hand up and during that time the overseas clubs hadn't cut away so much of our depth.
If Beaudy took a cash offer tomorrow, it would be a disaster - whereas if we still had Cruden, Sopoaga and Slade in the bank we'd be thinking that's disappointing but we'll be OK.
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
You see, my view is classically Tocquevillian - that the liberal-democratic-capitalist matrix that we all inhabit depends for its liveability upon pre-liberal forces and habits, unchosen obligations and allegiances: the communities of tribe and family.
But, I fear that liberalism has dissolved all these inheritances, leaving only a selfish individualism and soft bureaucratic despotism locked in a strange embrace.
It will reduce rich cultures to consumer products, smash social and familial relations, and leave us all the isolated and mutually suspicious inhabitants of an "anticulture" from which many genuine human goods have fled.
Which seems a bit like what is happening @Tim?
Holy shit that's deep, you need to contribute more to the Politics forum to drag it out of the gutter..
Edit - OK I read the article and see you just plagiarized it. Well played.
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@no-quarter So I don't need to come to the politics forum after all.
That's good - I don't have the time to spend on googling the proof that I'm the smartest tool in the shed.
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@chris-b But to me it's a different situation.
Beauden's weighing up 'I get the chance to be an AB legend whilst being the highest paid player in NZ - i'm close enough as it gets to guaranteed AB starting XV selection for the next 5 years' whereas these fringe guys are thinking 'I think i've reached my playing/financial peak at NZ (i've hit a ceiling), do I hang around for scraps and risk injury etc or do I go make hay whilst the sun shines'
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It is a long time ago now that I don't recall accurately, but didn't Luke McAlister leave similarly to Piutau, a guy that displayed immense potential but left without giving himself a genuine shot at realizing it?
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@taniwharugby He also had a second chance.
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@antipodean and yet probably only the clever folk that reside here knew that would never pan out
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@kiwimurph You're probably right.
But, what if a Frenchman has come calling saying, "Beauden, mon ami - you are one bad tackle from the end of your career. But, I have $25 million here that will keep your new wife very happy as she shops on the Champs Elysee with Mrs. Carter...".
More seriously, I don't think we (the public) should pay much attention to the predicament of the fringe players. The scraps they get aren't exactly jellimeat.
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Interesting topic, with no right or wrong answer.
Are we just guilty of imposing our values as amateur footballers who wanted to be ABs, but were never going to be, and therefore value it above everything else, on guys who actually have an option?
Or is it, as MR and Chris have said, that the ABs are more than a sports team to NZers, they are a culturally significant group, and therefore deserving of being above economic realities?
Or is it that we have finally reached full professionalism, where it really is only a job, and one that gives you a decade or so to set yourself up for the rest of your life? Sure, you can be Richie, Read, Dan, Nonu, play 80-120 tests, get a top level NZR salary for 8-10 years, setting yourself up for a comfy life in NZ, with the added bonus of being a big enough star to jag a massive 2-year Europe deal in your 30s because you're a legend.
But there are many more Steven Luatua's and Lima Sopoaga's, who sit on the fringe, miss squads (and thus miss money) and run the very real risk of being overtaken before they can ever get "their turn". It's very hard to look at that and think "nah, that 600 euro a season isn't THAT much compared to my current lot". Add in it could all go away with one bad tackle, and the risk/reward matrix moves a bit.
How much of a factor is our passion and culture on these guys as well? You're a week to week proposition with NZ rugby fans, where a couple of bad games and you're copping it everywhere, especially if there is a bright new thing to fawn over. Jesus, even Richie wasn't immune to our particular disease. 600 euro and a much dimmer spotlight probably starts to look pretty good after a poor year.
It's clear the AB jersey, the history, the legacy, and the chance to write yourself in to that is still absolutely a big pull, or we would lose a lot more guys than we do. But we really have to accept that for some, the reality probably dawns that the risk of being nothing more than a footnote is too big to ignore.
Still doesn't mean we can't write these traitors the fuck off though. You made your bed you ungrateful fuckers, lay in it.