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Yeah but its a bit like the fuel pipeline. Rivers didn't just get polluted in the last nine years....
I'm hopeful that if he remains PM we will find out that English is a better PM than Key was. Having spoken 1-1 with both English impressed far more as a Manager while Key had the charisma.
In the main Key was happy to let others do the grunt work but he was very capable of making policy up on the go if he felt the tide of popular opinion. I think English is more likely to go against the flow if he thinks it's for the better in the long run. I also think he cares deeply about the disadvantaged in NZ.
The left doesn't have a monopoly on caring despite the propaganda. I think an English government would really focus on these areas
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@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
Yeah but its a bit like the fuel pipeline. Rivers didn't just get polluted in the last nine years....
I'm hopeful that if he remains PM we will find out that English is a better PM than Key was. Having spoken 1-1 with both English impressed far more as a Manager while Key had the charisma.
There are many examples of rivers and lakes around Canterbury that were swimmable 9 years ago that are most definitely not now.
This has all happened with the rise of intensive dairy farming in the region.
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@sammyc I'm sure you are right - my point is successive governments have done nothing - not that the Nats are squeaky clean. For sure their subsidizing large scale water projects has greatly contributed to the issue
But territorial authorities are also to blame
Rural NZ in my limited experience is used as a tip by all manner of people and organisations and has been for over a century.
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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
Here in Oz, land management is a major issue addressed less by the Greens, than industry bodies working in conjunction with CSIRO and land owners. Unfortunately the Nationals (who should be the natural party of the environment here) are being dragged by their constituencies rather than leading.
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@sammyc said in NZ Politics:
There are many examples of rivers and lakes around Canterbury that were swimmable 9 years ago that are most definitely not now.
This has all happened with the rise of intensive dairy farming in the region.
Anyone on TSF a farmer and can give us an idea on what has been going on from the other point of view?
My brother is a dairy farmer in Taranaki and is sick to death of being branded as some sort of toxic crusader. Says they have spent a fortune over the last 20 years in achieving a really high environmental standard and that Taranaki waters are generally some of the most clean. I have no doubt this is helped by fairly significant rainfall due to the mountain but from what he says there is a real regional influence where places like Canterbury and the Wairarapa have really lagged behind the times. I'll pick his brains more next time I see him, don't normally find farming talk particularly interesting so haven't got specifics to hand.
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@rembrandt said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc said in NZ Politics:
There are many examples of rivers and lakes around Canterbury that were swimmable 9 years ago that are most definitely not now.
This has all happened with the rise of intensive dairy farming in the region.
Anyone on TSF a farmer and can give us an idea on what has been going on from the other point of view?
My brother is a dairy farmer in Taranaki and is sick to death of being branded as some sort of toxic crusader. Says they have spent a fortune over the last 20 years in achieving a really high environmental standard and that Taranaki waters are generally some of the most clean. I have no doubt this is helped by fairly significant rainfall due to the mountain but from what he says there is a real regional influence where places like Canterbury and the Wairarapa have really lagged behind the times. I'll pick his brains more next time I see him, don't normally find farming talk particularly interesting so haven't got specifics to hand.
like anything, there are those who are doing their best, those who are at the bare minimum of following the rules, and those who flout them completely.
it's wrong to tar them all with one brush, but the reality is that, taken as a whole, the industry has done massive damage.
too little regulation too late, not well-enforced, and some farmers are recalcitrant. it's important to remember of course that farmers and their families tend to swim in rivers more often than those living in large cities - i reckon most of them care, but most are not water scientists either - regulation is critical. anecdotally the south island is very bad. -
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc I'm sure you are right - my point is successive governments have done nothing - not that the Nats are squeaky clean. For sure their subsidizing large scale water projects has greatly contributed to the issue
But territorial authorities are also to blame
Rural NZ in my limited experience is used as a tip by all manner of people and organisations and has been for over a century.
that's a bit of a cop-out i reckon. there has been a huge increase, and 9 years in government is plenty of time to do something about it. what exactly have the departments in charge of this shit been doing for those 9 years? the disgraceful shifting of the goalposts on 'swimmable' doesn't really count.
a century ago, at the levels of farming then, with the knowledge then... that's not where the blame lies here. -
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
tricky question, but these are all problems of not enough regulation - so i can tell you that ACT is not the answer.
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I'm not trying to be an apologist for the National Party but I think the issue is far more complex than generally portrayed
Anecdotally the south island is very bad and I don't doubt that it true but I could take you to rivers that a far cleaner than they were when I was a kid in the 60-70's
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@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
tricky question, but these are all problems of not enough regulation - so i can tell you that ACT is not the answer.
The left wing response to all problems: tax and regulation.
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@kirwan said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@antipodean said in NZ Politics:
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc i agree sammy. dairy, tourism and immigration are probably the three things that have given our economy the boost that all this 'steady hand' stuff is based on.
personally i think they've mismanaged all three.
Can you think of a party that would address it better? What trade-offs would you find acceptable?
tricky question, but these are all problems of not enough regulation - so i can tell you that ACT is not the answer.
The left wing response to all problems: tax and regulation.
now now, there is a place for regulation without being a dirty commie.
do you think the free market should be left to sort out the environment? you think businesses are going to behave responsibly in that area without regulation? you think publicly listed companies, whose directors have a legal obligation to make money for shareholders, are going to spend money on things they don't have to? -
@reprobate said in NZ Politics:
@dogmeat said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc I'm sure you are right - my point is successive governments have done nothing - not that the Nats are squeaky clean. For sure their subsidizing large scale water projects has greatly contributed to the issue
But territorial authorities are also to blame
Rural NZ in my limited experience is used as a tip by all manner of people and organisations and has been for over a century.
that's a bit of a cop-out i reckon. there has been a huge increase, and 9 years in government is plenty of time to do something about it. what exactly have the departments in charge of this shit been doing for those 9 years? the disgraceful shifting of the goalposts on 'swimmable' doesn't really count.
a century ago, at the levels of farming then, with the knowledge then... that's not where the blame lies here.Dairy conversions have been going on much longer than the last nine years, not only from sheep and beef but also were proposed from forestry some cases (not sure if they went ahead). Which may not have been wise in hindsight, but has been happening longer than under MPI's watch under the current colour of government. Maybe the current government could have moved quicker, but this is not a new thing - I can remember water quality issues with local rivers from MAF testing going back to the 80's.
We are starting to pay the price of longer term practices, especially with nitrogen. We did a school trip in the 90's for geography where the new Rotorua sewage treatment plant was world leading to spray treated runoff into the forests. Twenty years on, and that great idea has itslf now saturated the forest soil and is generating waterway runoff again: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503438&objectid=11059245
Plant vines instead of farming, and then cumulative run-off from copper based sprays becomes the next big issue people raise.
There's all sorts of proposals and ideas to reduce farming, I'd figure that some sort of middle ground and/or scientific solution(s) needs to be found given the amount of exports that directly and indirectly come from the land for NZ.
@Rembrandt's comments are spot on though - some regions have moved much quicker on environmental practices than others...
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So a few comments from a dairy farmer:
*So many variables. Canterbury and Wairarapa are drier soil types. River flow is less so higher chance of pollutants to build up.
In Taranaki however we started a fencing and riparian scheme voluntarily in 1995 - most farmers brought into it and over 97 percent fenced and over 90 ish planted. Canterbury and Wairarapa are further behind.
Stocking rates is also a concern (Cows per hectare) - Taranaki is 2-2.5 cow per hectare and Canterbury is 2.5-3.5. Also Higher input farms in Canterbury and Wairarapa - reliant on brought in feeds etc to maintain higher stock rates. Also depends on where waterways are etc - Most farmland in taranaki is off the mountain shorter stretch then to the sea - less chance of pollutants to build up. Wairarapa is from lake Wairarapa which is fed further up by rivers that have thousands of hectares of farmland and towns cities polluting. Canterbury Has the most pristine water coming from the alps but it meanders slowly so sedimentation happens quicker which will catch nitrates etc. Way more to go into and way more science needed to solve the issues.*
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@rembrandt said in NZ Politics:
@sammyc said in NZ Politics:
Anyone on TSF a farmer and can give us an idea on what has been going on from the other point of view?
PAJ and his cows are over in the Taranaki somewhere that last I heard but he has not been on here for a wee while.
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@tregaskis If the polls can be trusted it's neck and neck between Lab/Green and Nats with neither having an overall majority.
I think this is paradoxically a bonus for National. Lab/Green and Lab/NZF both fall short even if MP joins as well. So Labour needs an unholy alliance of Lab/Green/NZF.
Despite doing his normal coy BS Winston has actually come out in the last two days with a couple of non-negotiables. If (massive if) he wasn't pissed and can be believed or isn't bribed then he won't work with MP and any form of water tax is off the table.
On that basis a Nat/NZF government is by far the likeliest outcome with ACT sidelined as a) he won't be needed b) much easier to sell to Winnie and c) ACT will support National on confidence and supply anyway.
In late breaking news Gareth Morgan has rebranded TOP as the Monster Raving Looney party stating he expects to get 10% tomorrow and 30% in 2020
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Apparently Labours polling shows Nats ahead slightly too, although St. Jacinda wouldn't reveal how much, but was 'low single figure'
Why have they not started counting the votes already cast? Would seem to defeat the purpose of allowing early votes if you wait until Saturday to count them, allowing for all manner of things to go wrong.
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@taniwharugby said in NZ Politics:
Apparently Labours polling shows Nats ahead slightly too, although St. Jacinda wouldn't reveal how much, but was 'low single figure'
Why have they not started counting the votes already cast? Would seem to defeat the purpose of allowing early votes if you wait until Saturday to count them, allowing for all manner of things to go wrong.
I guess they don't want to leak any early indication of the result that might alter if some people will vote or not?
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